Aim vs Tactics

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DeletedUser

What if instead of an example, she would have asked:
Is aim+dodging with low or no appearance winning against tactics+aim with low or no dodging?
Would you be able to answer or would you ask for gear, soldier bonus and weapons?
LOL you make me spam Elmyr, I'll get you for this :D
 

DeletedUser

Neo-quick said:
assuming both have same gear/weapon/non-soldier class and the above specs
the chances for the attacker winning is slightly more(abt 60-40%), however at the same time, though with 0 dodge, you cannot guarantee the defender will lose all the time, reduction in aim of the attacker, and high(comparative) aim of the defender.
plus you have to factor in the dueling stance/luck.. too many factors so i would say very very difficult to give an accurate prediction
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Exactly what I said.

The fact is, appearance with or without dodging leaves things much more up to chance than resistance does. Resistance is absolute - you won't always win, but damage is always reduced - but winning by dodging is entirely different. Any absolute answer is wrong.

The question didn't ask for the odds of the attacker or defender winning, it asked who will win.
 

DeletedUser

Elmyr said:
Exactly what I said.

The fact is, appearance with or without dodging leaves things much more up to chance than resistance does. Resistance is absolute - you won't always win, but damage is always reduced - but winning by dodging is entirely different. Any absolute answer is wrong.

The question didn't ask for the odds of the attacker or defender winning, it asked who will win.
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Exactly. My point, in fact.

Wait, where did resistance come in?
 
nashy19

nashy19

Nashy (as himself)
Attacker: 60 dodging
Defender: No dodging

Attacker: Some aim
Defender: 60 aim

Obviously the attacker.
 

DeletedUser

i'm just curious how the appearance, tactics, aim, and dodging works, west help says that if the app. of the attacker is lower than the tactics of defender, the attack value(which is aim) of attacker is lowered ...

0 app.[attacker] - 60 tact. = 60 tact --->> 60 tact - 60aim[attacker] = 0 aim[attacker] ---> 0 aim[attacker] - 0 dodging[defender] = 0

TOTAL:
attacker- 0 aim, 60 dodg.
defender- 0 dodg, 60 aim

0aim[attacker] - 0 dodg[defender] = 0
60aim[defender] - 60 dodg[attacker] = 0
 
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DeletedUser

Dodge vs aim = 1 vs 1
Tactics vs aim = 2 vs 1

That means in your own calculation: 0 app - 60 tact = 60 tact ---> 60 tact - 60 aim = 30 aim ---> 30 aim - 0 dodging = 30 :)
 

DeletedUser

That's assuming attack value equals aim. If that was the case, why don't they just call it aim.

The attack value is decided by your aiming skill.
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Well the circumference of a circle is decided by its radius, does that mean it equals its radius? The area of a circle is also decided by its radius, does that mean the area of a circle is the same as its circumference?
 

DeletedUser20647

Elmyr said:
Well the circumference of a circle is decided by its radius, does that mean it equals its radius? The area of a circle is also decided by its radius, does that mean the area of a circle is the same as its circumference?
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Yes, I think so.
 

DeletedUser

I assume everyone forgot 2 crucial sentences from the west help here.

Additionally each player receives a bonus of five for the attack value.

Additionally each player receives a bonus of five for the dodging value.
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Therefore, after modified, the "real" skills of the attacker and defender are:

Attacker:
5 Aim, 65 Dodging
Defender:
65 Aim, 5 Dodging

Well, as Neo-quick and Elmyr have said, no one could really answer this question, because it's based on luck.

The attack value (AV) is based on aim but it is a random number between 1 and maximum modified aim, the defense value (DV) is based on dodging but it is a random number between 1 and maximum modified dodging.

In this case, based solely on the information lycanZzz has given, I personally think that the defender has more chance to hit (not win because it depends how hard you hit), because a slightly higher AV will land a hit. For instance, the DV of the attacker is 60 for a round but the AV of the defender is 61, then the defender lands a hit. Meanwhile, the attacker has only 5 Aim, and the defender has 5 dodging, which means a small interval (only 1~5).

Note: Anyone doubt why the skills are different or have any further information, please read the following posts
http://forum.the-west.net/showpost.php?p=406870&postcount=13
http://forum.the-west.net/showpost.php?p=408579&postcount=14
 

DeletedUser

eloquently put louis... +1 to u.

however i personally feel even in the current case, one cannot quantify DV(60) or the AV(61) solely based on the dodging or (aim & tactic Vs. Appearance) becoz of massive factor of luck.
The problem with the dueling formula is there no exact formula.. all that is inferred is a vague reference.
 

DeletedUser

Thanks Neo-quick. I just referred such information because thanks to them I have a pretty good build. :cool:

To be clear, I didn't say their AV or DV are a fixed number. I'm just trying to say that the defender has more chance to have higher AV than DV, which results in a hit.

At the end of the day, it's all based on luck. And that's why more people choose resistance build.
 

DeletedUser

The aim/dodging equation is that each dueler has per strike a random number between 1 and the highest value of their aim or dodging. The highest random number wins. So with 60 aim against 60 dodging, all other things equal, the defender has a 50-50 chance of hitting the attacker for an AVERAGE of half the time, or 4 times per duel. I don't think the formula for tactics reducing aim is known, but it is certainly not 100%. So if the defender has no dodging at all, his random number will always be 1, and the attacker will hit almost every time, and only miss should he be unlucky enough for his random hit number to come up 1.
 
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DeletedUser20647

Ringworm said:
The aim/dodging equation is that each dueler has per strike a random number between 1 and the highest value of their aim or dodging. The highest random number wins. So with 60 aim against 60 dodging, all other things equal, the defender has a 50-50 chance of hitting the attacker for an AVERAGE of half the time, or 4 times per duel. I don't think the formula for tactics reducing aim is known, but it is certainly not 100%. So if the defender has no dodging at all, his random number will always be 1, and the attacker will hit him an average of 59 out of every 60 rounds.
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It will be 1 to 5
 

DeletedUser

Ringworm said:
The aim/dodging equation is that each dueler has per strike a random number between 1 and the highest value of their aim or dodging. The highest random number wins. So with 60 aim against 60 dodging, all other things equal, the defender has a 50-50 chance of hitting the attacker for an AVERAGE of half the time, or 4 times per duel. I don't think the formula for tactics reducing aim is known, but it is certainly not 100%. So if the defender has no dodging at all, his random number will always be 1, and the attacker will hit almost every time, and only miss should he be unlucky enough for his random hit number to come up 1.
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Unless you've seen the code, you're being way too specific and stating a guess as a fact.
 

DeletedUser

Aw, you guys still discuss this topic?

Let's close it Elmyr. No one could really answer the question.
 

DeletedUser

Louis.McQueen said:
Well, as Neo-quick and Elmyr have said, no one could really answer this question, because it's based on luck.
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er.. that IS an answer. i found those 50 responses saying the same "not enough details" annoyingly asinine.. if you still need more details.. fine: the sun is about 5º above the horizon, the defender is wearing red lipstick and the attacker is wearing his lucky blue shoelaces (+1% chance to not bore me to death). and all other pointless information is 42.

you have 60 aim 60 dodge vs 60 aim 60 tactics, simply assume all else equal and gear and all those lovely other variables everyone keeps clamoring about become irrelevant..

obviously the point is to ask whether dodge alone is better than tactics alone. most people who actually bothered answering the question seem to think/agree dodge is the better.

also i'll add that even if dodging and tactics are of similar value, it should be more efficient to put more into dodge since tactics is used only in defense while dodge is used in both. however without knowing the exact duel formulas used one can only speculate as to how useful each skill is. and really there could be a cap in play against the skills so that adding too much of one without any of the other wont be of any help.

in other words, its hard to definitively tell which is better, but i'd guess dodge, but due to the unknown formula would add that it might be wise to put a few points into tactics anyway (and appearance if you're at all interested in attacking).

and yes, part of the answer is that there is an element of luck involved, since you're talking about chances to hit and chances to miss.
so yes whoever said the attacker could miss 8 times and the defender could hit 8 times is correct, its just very unlikely, but duel a couple billion times and it could happen..


Louis.McQueen said:
Meanwhile, the attacker has only 5 Aim, and the defender has 5 dodging, which means a small interval (only 1~5).
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sorry but did you even bother to read the original post? the attacker has 60 aim, how did he end up with 5? 60 tactics is supposed to cancel out 60 aim?
 
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DeletedUser

I agree with almost all what you said but only the following quote:

Yoam said:
sorry but did you even bother to read the original post? the attacker has 60 aim, how did he end up with 5? 60 tactics is supposed to cancel out 60 aim?
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I'm not going to explain here. However, if you have a little bit of spare time, then here are my answers:

http://forum.the-west.net/showpost.php?p=406870&postcount=13
http://forum.the-west.net/showpost.php?p=408579&postcount=14
http://en8.the-west.net/help.php?article=duell_procedure
 
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