Adventures discussion and feedback

williamjack

Well-Known Member
I really have no problem at all for the removal of the exp potions, it is my own fault I did not buy more of them and no one elses lol.My problem is you put them there fine,but if you pull something please please put something in its place so people keep playing.
I dont see any reason to play unless you do cause I dont want wait in the que 15 minutes to half hour to play one game that last 5 minutes. Some of us do not have the whole set as we were never lucky enough to win more than one or two chest a day if we played all day. I havent won a chest in over a week now and I still want my horse but now looks like a lost cause. I have bought plenty chest on market and with vps and usualy it is mojo or clovers and sometimes tax refunds. It is weird how some win a lot of one item and others win a different item over and over. For me I seam to always win saddles. Some people win lot horses lol but cant sell them (hint hint) Id buy one on market if they were auctionable lol
 

Cameahwait

The new content had better come out asap as it may not be possible to salvage the adventures after very much longer. Waiting for ages to get into a 3v3 is not going to sustain the adventures for very long, especially when the lure of flowers is gone in 3 days time.

This feature has the potential to be developed well, but new things have to happen fast after this current event finishes as I think like many have suggested, this could go the way of poker and it will be a thankless and daunting task to try to resurrect them.
 

asdf124

Well-Known Member
I think some may be confused by this situation we have dearly found ourselves in.

'Recklessly' removing an item from the shop may not be a solution, nor was it reckless, but it did remove a problem. I spent a considerable amount of time - more time than I usually give up for trivial issues like these. I have also followed this thread very closely reading through all the feedback we received, some very good and some bad but both are always appreciated since we want to make this game better for you!

XP potions turned out to be a menace at the end. First off it messes around with those players who actually earned the right to be at level 150, players continuously AFK a game to get veteran points to buy potions. I found that XP potions are not really a problem for lower level players under 100 but a massive problem for those between level 130 - 150. A player at that level gains a huge advantage and can quite quickly race through levels that were supposed to be the longest part of their game.

Something you may want to consider as well, you have had the opportunity to play adventures for just over a month now, yet adventures was only officially released on all The West a few days back. But with the EN launch, we didn't bait players to play adventures with XP potions, we are able to suck as much feedback out our playerbase by just releasing the feature that everyone was waiting for. We did quite a bit of advertising and it was a well anticipated feature to begin with.
Since it is a problem for higher ups, than can you have it as a level requirement, only less than level 100 can use the potion?

Since I bet many already abused it.
 

ishubagaria

XP potions turned out to be a menace at the end. First off it messes around with those players who actually earned the right to be at level 150, players continuously AFK a game to get veteran points to buy potions. I found that XP potions are not really a problem for lower level players under 100 but a massive problem for those between level 130 - 150. A player at that level gains a huge advantage and can quite quickly race through levels that were supposed to be the longest part of their game.
I agree here. Having access to xp potions through a method that doesn't require you to spend any energy (though you do need to spend a significant amount of RL time) is unfair to the people that reached level 150 the hard way.

But what about in-game cash then? People can sell loot chests and outlaw set items and therefore they can earn cash by not spending any energy, like they can do with items from tombolas and travelling fair and other events. At least the xp potions gave more xp to higher level players than they did to lower level players, but a lower level player can sell a loot box for the same price as a higher level player and gain an advantage over the latter since their situation was much different when they were lower level. Isn't this also unfiar to the higher level players then?

By the same logic, shouldn't the loot chests and outlaw set items be made un-auctionable too?
 

Apelatia

Moderator
You folks are getting the wrong idea here about 'abuse'. When Twista refers to players abusing the system to get veteran points, he is talking about those that join the queue, pick their abilities, and then merely sit somewhere as an afk player for the remainder of the game. There were players that did exactly that, and that is what is being referred to.

ashuji said:
(So basically you are openly stating that English servers were used as experimental rats to test out the game and we have to be thankful for that.)
I would be thankful myself. The players on the .net servers were given the opportunity to have a say of their own in what came out in the final version of the adventures. The discussion and feedback that was provided in this thread has been read and taken into account by those that are actually working on the final product. We were given the opportunity to aid with the final product, and that is certainly something that I'm grateful for. If you're not, then that's your problem. It's not something that's going to go away.
 

ashuji

Member
Sigh!

Maybe it would be better if next time you take a few minutes to read and digest FULLY , before you come charging and brandishing your sword in an attempt to dazzle us with your fine words of wisdom displaying your astonishing ability to mind read.

You folks are getting the wrong idea here about 'abuse'. When Twista refers to players abusing the system to get veteran points, he is talking about those that join the queue, pick their abilities, and then merely sit somewhere as an afk player for the remainder of the game. There were players that did exactly that, and that is what is being referred to.
.....
XP potions turned out to be a menace at the end. First off it messes around with those players who actually earned the right to be at level 150, players continuously AFK a game to get veteran points to buy potions.
...
Did you even know the players we are talking about? They were low level and few in number and IMO were not the real 'abusers'. Those small players just wanted the outlaw gear and chests.
And, dealing with the AFK problem was sorted out by the addition of a new bit of programming which checked activity before veteran points were awarded.
How is the issue of XP potion is even related to that?


I would be thankful myself. The players on the .net servers were given the opportunity to have a say of their own in what came out in the final version of the adventures. The discussion and feedback that was provided in this thread has been read and taken into account by those that are actually working on the final product. We were given the opportunity to aid with the final product, and that is certainly something that I'm grateful for. If you're not, then that's your problem. It's not something that's going to go away.
If you are thankful, no one is stopping you, it hardly concerns me or anyone what your personal viewpoint is. But, do NOT try to belittle me just because i have a different opinion.
So, my not being grateful is NOT a problem to me in anyway.

And what is so awesome about this launch procedure that we have to bend low and acknowledge? It is an established procedure.

You bring something new out and you take the feed back WITH thanks.

It is understood that you have to defend the actions and justify them or atleast try to do so, but give us the curtsy of being atleast appearing to be well read and informed.
 

Nisa

The West Team
Marshal
GM Master
Deputy Sheriff
If you are thankful, no one is stopping you, it hardly concerns me or anyone what your personal viewpoint is. But, do NOT try to belittle me just because i have a different opinion.
So, my not being grateful is NOT a problem to me in anyway.
It means you prefer someone else makes decisions for you so you just comment/ or not on the final update. I believe you will understand that someone else will disagree and choose to be involved in making changes.

Hot prizes for top 3 or 5, LMAO, you forgot the hundreds or maybe thousands who used to get a little something everytime they played.
I'm not sure what you meant there. It's a usual procedure how all competitions, tournaments, championships etc are run. Only the Best get hot prizes. The rest that weren't that successful or didnt put as much effort as some others gets nothing or something little as a symbolic gift.
 

danielbanski

Just saying, but as to Twista saying it would mess around with those who earned their place to be level 150, you mustn`t forget that those people had the same option to purchase XP potions as well, most definetely did purchase them.
So the only "menace" it would`ve done was that those same players would actually play adventures instead of spending nuggets on energy and work motivation buffs.
And as to those afk players, there could`ve been a report system for that, I mean, on Dorado a few players had agreed to sending even a ticket about a certain player, though I probably guess it wouldn`t have made much difference, if a report system was created, maybe that could`ve been stopped. ( Having said that, then we`d have to deal with abuse of the report system, but since it is punishable, doubt anyone would abuse it that much).
 

Apelatia

Moderator
ashuji said:
Did you even know the players we are talking about? They were low level and few in number and IMO were not the real 'abusers'. Those small players just wanted the outlaw gear and chests.
And, dealing with the AFK problem was sorted out by the addition of a new bit of programming which checked activity before veteran points were awarded.
How is the issue of XP potion is even related to that?
The afk problem was sorted, that's right, but that doesn't eradicate the fact that the problem did exist, and that players did abuse it to gain veteran points, and through that to get potions of minor wisdom. I'm not entirely sure how you can ignore that fact. That is what Twista is calling abuse. Without veteran points, potions can't be bought.

It's not possible for you to know whether the low level players were after the Outlaw set from the chests, though I'd warrant a guess that the reasoning behind the removal of the potions has a high chance of being related to the problem of afk players buying them. It's a good thing that they've been removed, as like Twista said, the advantage that can be gained through the use of them after level 130 or so is such a huge advantage, especially when there is no handicap whatsoever to playing adventure after adventure without any loss in terms of the other aspects of gameplay. No HP is lost, no energy is lost, and yet players could spend all day playing adventures whilst continuing with their other tasks. It's a little insane that this was actually a way that people were using to level up, and as such, it's a good thing that the potions are gone, in fact it would have been better for them to have never made it there in the first place. Certain players worked hard to make their way to Level 150. To then have their efforts diminished by others using the potions to speed level to the same place was slightly absurd, even if the Level 150 players were using them too, they aren't going to 'level up' any further, so their gain is much less.

ashuji said:
If you are thankful, no one is stopping you, it hardly concerns me or anyone what your personal viewpoint is. But, do NOT try to belittle me just because i have a different opinion.
So, my not being grateful is NOT a problem to me in anyway.

And what is so awesome about this launch procedure that we have to bend low and acknowledge? It is an established procedure.

You bring something new out and you take the feed back WITH thanks.

It is understood that you have to defend the actions and justify them or atleast try to do so, but give us the curtsy of being atleast appearing to be well read and informed.
If you feel that you are being belittled, then you are welcome to, but that is truly not my intention. I read your post, saw fault in it, and decided to post myself, especially after other posters were getting the wrong idea from your take on Twista's announcement. I'm also not entirely sure how you can accuse me of being ill-informed, when it's you that has taken Twista's post out of context and put your own spin on it to suit your own opinion. As well as this, you have no way to verify that the discussion is 'falling on deaf ears'. Moderators and developers alike have been reading the feedback that has been given in this thread, and taking the feedback to improve what we already have before us.

If not for the way the adventures have been released, and then reviewed with the help of the players here, then I can guarantee that the bugs in the adventures and the things which players disliked would have taken a whole lot longer to establish, and then the fixes would have been longer in the coming, and that would have been worse for the playerbase as a whole, as the adventures have maintained the interest of many players that were losing interest in the game.
 

Anny Hudson

Well-Known Member
I think it's best for all of us to forget potions of minor wisdoms were once available in VP shop. That way we can feel a lot better about adventures. Now whether it's still attractive to be played or not that's a separate issue altogether. Play for fun.. play for upcoming items on the VP shop (as twista said).. or just let it alone.
 

Fafer

You folks are getting the wrong idea here about 'abuse'. When Twista refers to players abusing the system to get veteran points, he is talking about those that join the queue, pick their abilities, and then merely sit somewhere as an afk player for the remainder of the game. There were players that did exactly that, and that is what is being referred to.
yes, those "abusers" were problem, but with this action you are just punishing whole player community (or almost whole). so, i feel like i've been cheated in a way that i provided constructive feedback and in return i got punished.
there had to be some middle solution. like why not put timer to use another wisdom potion, for 7 days or something, same with 600cp product crafting? surely those few high level players won't feel threatened.

I would be thankful myself. The players on the .net servers were given the opportunity to have a say of their own in what came out in the final version of the adventures. The discussion and feedback that was provided in this thread has been read and taken into account by those that are actually working on the final product. We were given the opportunity to aid with the final product, and that is certainly something that I'm grateful for. If you're not, then that's your problem. It's not something that's going to go away.
that opportunity i'm already using on beta server, public TEST server and lots of other players as well.

ok, tweaking is always needed with something, i agree, but 1-2 day announcement would be at least decent and fair to everyone so whoever wants can spend their accumulated VPs.
 
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Zuluski

Member
It's a good thing that they've been removed, as like Twista said, the advantage that can be gained through the use of them after level 130 or so is such a huge advantage, especially when there is no handicap whatsoever to playing adventure after adventure without any loss in terms of the other aspects of gameplay. No HP is lost, no energy is lost, and yet players could spend all day playing adventures whilst continuing with their other tasks. It's a little insane that this was actually a way that people were using to level up, and as such, it's a good thing that the potions are gone, in fact it would have been better for them to have never made it there in the first place. Certain players worked hard to make their way to Level 150. To then have their efforts diminished by others using the potions to speed level to the same place was slightly absurd, even if the Level 150 players were using them too, they aren't going to 'level up' any further, so their gain is much less.
With all duel respect Apel. I don't think that most that have commented here after the removal of the xp potion are against the idea of it being removed but rather about the way it has been done AGAIN.

You guys should have had all the knowledge and data that you desired from running adventures on beta worlds for a considerably longer time then on open worlds. What happened on beta? Why did most play adventures on beta? Answers are simple to both questions. For potions and for 100% drop rate of loots which provided many with new items almost immediately. Great many players moved 20-30 leves up withing a a week or 2, depending on how much time they spent on adventures and you guys still act surprised that same thing is happening on open worlds.

Why then make the same mistake and give the xp potion on the open worlds having watched what happened on beta worlds?
The only difference you decided to implement is the 20% drop chance of the loots. The deductions that da twista has made that have prompted him to make this difficult and very stressful and most importantly, very sudden decision to remove the potion, should have been made long before the adventures were launched on open worlds.

But as i have stated at the beginning, i dont think all the posts are about removal of the potion but about the way it has been implemented.

You guys may have all the data, statistics, reports and what have you, but one thing that is evidently lacking is is your knowledge how a human being works. What we are witnessing is a simple human raction to when you take something away without giving something back. And promises that something, somewhere, whenever will be done may be good enough for a 1 year old but not for people with half a brain. That's not how it should be done provided you want to show the players at least a little bit of courtesy or respect.

Its not our fault that we, on open worlds have reacted the same way to the availabilty of potions from adventures as players on beta did. You guys should have known long time ago what was gonna to happen and all we ask in return is first for a little respect (a prior notification that such action as removal of an item from vet shop will take place), and secondly, be ready to offer something back when you are ready to take something away and not only cheap, empty promises.

Newtons 3rd law has been around for a very long time and its very evident in this very case. Your action has had a very strong reaction from the players and if you want adventures to live, it will require positive action from you that will hopefully have a an equally positive reaction from the players.
 

futurama1001

Well-Known Member
there had to be some middle solution. like why not put timer to use another wisdom potion, for 7 days or something, same with 600cp product crafting? surely those few high level players won't feel threatened.
I've been brainstorming some simple solutions regarding balancing the adventure reward system, but this is very interesting indeed and it never even crossed my mind. This is the exact kind of thinking that we need to adopt if we want to try and improve what should be an exciting feature for all involved.

This post could get quite long from here, but I've been quiet in this thread so far, so you've had your respite.

I don't like the fact that the word "abuse" is being used at all in this instance, since as far as I can tell, everybody has acted within the confines of the game. Sure, AFK players and the rapid gain of exp have both been major problems, but they're separate issues and I don't believe using one to argue a point relating to the other is the best way to go about solving either.

I'm not here to argue my point, as the direction this discussion has taken over the last couple of pages is rather detrimental to progress. Instead, I'll try to address several concerns that have been raised, both valid and not so valid, in a manner that will not attract an "anonymous" message accusing me of practising one or more forms of witchcraft including, but not limited to, mind reading.

A couple of things that are important to remember in discussions such as these are that all opinions should be considered valid and if you provide your feedback in an aggressive manner, you're not entitled to call foul if someone responds accordingly.

However, to protect my throat from any jumping down or tearing, I will provide you all with the short version of my own opinion. While I can see the benefit of the exp potions as an added incentive to play adventures and provide feedback during the testing phase, it should have been obvious that they would need to be removed at a later date and an announcement to that effect would have prevented players from feeling cheated, which seems to be the prevailing opinion at the moment.

That said, I do firmly believe that the potions in their current form have no place being rewarded so abundantly from a minigame that expends no energy and places the player at no risk. Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, it was the equivalent of giving fort manoeuvres an exp reward. I'm not saying there should be no exp rewarded for participating in adventures, as they do take time and a degree of skill. It's just that the amount of exp being earned was not consistent with the amount of exp provided by the other aspects of the game. The players' experiences from the Beta server indicated this quite forcibly.

Speaking of manoeuvres, they - along with the game's ill-fated foray into online poker - are perfect examples of what happens when a feature exists with no real rewards: no one will use it. And let's face it, the only rewards worth winning in adventures with the removal of the exp potions are the Outlaw's set pieces, and they have such a frustratingly low drop rate that I'd be more likely to quit adventures than search for them for any extended period of time.

Therefore, I believe the key lies in finding a balance between risk and reward. Since I don't think applying energy or HP to adventures is the best course of action, a reward system that is more satisfactory but less destructive needs to be developed.

That's where this thread comes into play. Instead of bashing each other and claiming immunity under the pretence of providing valuable feedback, spend a bit of time throwing around ideas. I've already seen several valid suggestions, and that's without any collaboration between players. These include:

1. Increase the drop rate of loot chests.
2. Add more valuable/unique items to the loot chests.
3. Raise the price of the exp potion in the VP store.
4. Create a new potion that gives a fixed amount of exp rather than a level dependant percentage.
5. Fafer's excellent suggestion to add a time limit on exp buffs. Even if it's as short as 24 hours rather than a week, it would go a long way towards balancing adventure exp compared to, say, fort battle exp.
6. The Almighty Brown Tie has offered its services once again as a reward. Praise be to the Almighty Brown Tie, for it is benevolent, gracious and brown.

I've only played a handful of adventures and I don't claim to be an expert by any means. Quite the contrary, in fact - I'm a massive njub. You people have the experience needed to develop the best solution possible, but only if you actually direct your efforts towards doing so.

Perhaps it wasn't the best idea to add the potion to the shop in the first place, and perhaps the removal wasn't handled as smoothly as players would have liked. But hindsight is a beautiful thing, and it's easy to look at it this way now. Mistakes were made and admitted to, and the only direction we should be looking now is forward.

Alternatively, we could continue to argue amongst ourselves over things so petty as each other's attitudes and allow things to remain as they are. Or worse still, we could let Inno come up with a replacement reward on their own, and we all know that can only lead to a wheel of fortune and being showered with bond letters, junk chests and motivation buffs. :)
 
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ishubagaria

4. Create a new potion that gives a fixed amount of exp rather than a level dependant percentage.
This is exactly what I had in mind when came to this thread this time.

Alternatively or additionally, players could be rewarded xp on the basis of the VP gain at the game. Like xp won = 10xVP won, i.e. xp reward slabs according to points at the end of the game could be 500, 1000, 1500, 2000 or 2500.
These numbers are merely an example of the idea I'm suggesting, the numbers themselves are not what I'm suggesting.
 

Apelatia

Moderator
Fafer's idea is a good one, and one that I can definitely see as a possible alternative to a complete removal of the potions of minor wisdom from the VP store. I'm also inclined towards a possible seven-day wait between each possible purchase, as that leaves long enough time for the potions to not be overused, but still long enough for them to remain as a reward worth playing adventures for.

With all duel respect Apel. I don't think that most that have commented here after the removal of the xp potion are against the idea of it being removed but rather about the way it has been done AGAIN.
What is done is done - some are going to like it and some aren't. We'll just have to see what solutions we can come up with and hope that the developers take heed of what we're saying, and decide to implement one of the ideas that those posting constructively in this thread can come up with. I'm happy to help with further development of an idea here that might just be taken into action. :)
 

Micky12

Well-Known Member
5. Fafer's excellent suggestion to add a time limit on exp buffs. Even if it's as short as 24 hours rather than a week, it would go a long way towards balancing adventure exp compared to, say, fort battle exp.
This is exactly what we needed in this type of situation. Would have made a lot more sense trying to do this than the complete removal of xp potions since players will keep complaining that they have been 'cheated'. In fact having no xp potions in the first place would have been the better option but let's just forgot about them now and move on.
 

futurama1001

Well-Known Member
Alternatively or additionally, players could be rewarded xp on the basis of the VP gain at the game. Like xp won = 10xVP won, i.e. xp reward slabs according to points at the end of the game could be 500, 1000, 1500, 2000 or 2500.
These numbers are merely an example of the idea I'm suggesting, the numbers themselves are not what I'm suggesting.
That's another good idea, but 10x is extremely high and would probably prove to be even worse than the situation with the exp potion. It's possible to play dozens of adventures a day, which the more active players tend to do fairly often. We really don't need them getting an average of 2k exp per 15 minute game.

Like you said though, you were suggesting a system rather than the actual numbers, and there's definitely merit to the suggestion. Even 1 exp per VP would allow for potentially 800-1k exp per hour which is more than any job, less than a fort fight but repeatable as often as you like rather than a maximum of twice a day, and far less than exp duelling but also far less risky. In other words, quite well suited to the circumstances, especially considering there would still be other items available as rewards.

The idea here is to come up with rewards that allow adventures to remain attractive as a minigame that can be played whilst players go about their other daily activities, such as jobs or waiting for fort battles (and that's the true beauty of this feature. The game has been severely lacking in features that keep players involved and occupied rather than simply clicking and waiting), without being so OP that they make other struggling features redundant.
 

William Bresnaham

Thank you for the thought and effort put into your post.

1. Increase the drop rate of loot chests.
Disagree. I think 20% plus purchasable for 5000 VP is fine. It takes some effort to get a complete Outlaw set but it can be done. I completed mine last week with dropped / bought loot chests. I think as adventures have zero cost to play, a higher drop rate will just increase cash in game ( selling to trader / auctioning duplicates ). I've made more in game cash doing this than jobbing / questing / etc. combined. Granted as more Outlaw items are out there the auction prices are coming down, but even selling them to the trader is decent cash, for no in game energy or danger.

2. Add more valuable/unique items to the loot chests.
Disagree. Same problem as above as adding more value for no energy/danger cost. I think there need to be other rewards in the VP portion of the store, but can't see putting unique items out side of the Outlaw/B-guns/Buffs there.


3. Raise the price of the exp potion in the VP store.
4. Create a new potion that gives a fixed amount of exp rather than a level dependant percentage.
5. Fafer's excellent suggestion to add a time limit on exp buffs. Even if it's as short as 24 hours rather than a week, it would go a long way towards balancing adventure exp compared to, say, fort battle exp.
6. The Almighty Brown Tie has offered its services once again as a reward. Praise be to the Almighty Brown Tie, for it is benevolent, gracious and brown.
3-6. All good ideas.
 
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williamjack

Well-Known Member
Thank you for the thought and effort put into your post.


Disagree. I think 20% plus purchasable for 2500 VP is fine.


Where are you geting yours for 2500? I want on that world. I have to pay twice that at 5000 vp for one chest which is like 20 wins and I dont think one I have ever bought with vps had any outlaw gear in it to be honest.