Who was the real bad guys in the Civil War?

DeletedUser

I gotta idea for a fun debate! Who was the real bad people in the civil war?

Since Im Captain Quantrill ill be pro confederate.

The confederates were good guys: they were seasonists who didnt want to be part of the union anymore and they didnt think they were right when they were making laws. they started shooting at fort sumter because they wanted the union people off their land and they wanted to be their own country, sort of like how african countries rebeled against the imperiolist owners of them.

in 1861 war broke out between them, and they decided to start fighting over a bunch of reasons like slaves states rights guns and a whole lot of stuff.

Was the union really right in trying to heard them back into the union? lincoln trampled the constitushin and stuff by hurting the south and he did it for politicel game.
 

DeletedUser34315

Yes, he was right. A divided America would have been an easy target for Europe,as well as the South supported slavery, which Lincoln abolished.
 

DeletedUser30834

Well, there aren't really any good guys in war, there is a side you root for though. But the south started the civil war and it was probably one of the biggest blunders of the war. By being the aggressors and attacking Fort Sumter, they locked out most of their Initial chances for support from European countries. There are theories that a lot of the north would have refused to go to war had the south not attacked first and Lincoln wanted to use military force to reunite the union.

Contrary to popular belief, the civil war was not really about slavery until Lincoln was trying to get reelected. The emancipation Proclamation did not free all slaves though, only those in southern states that seceded from the union. Slavery was still completely legal in the three or four slave states that stayed in the union up until the creation and ratification of the thirteenth amendment in 1865.
 

DeletedUser

Lincoln was a marked man ever since he marched his armies. The Southern army was a rabble - petty farmers, armed with outdated weapons, the only real soldiers being the trained cavalry. The Southern states were doomed to failiure.
 

DeletedUser

I don't study ACW so all I'll bring to the conversation is this; there is no good or evil, good or bad, etc etc, one man's good is another man's evil, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist, etc etc. to assume that there are good and bad guys is simply nieve. in real life, everything's in the grey. end of.
 

DeletedUser28032

Where Europe was concerned although the British empire was "backing" the Confederates and were perfectly happy to send them Enfield rifles etc they weren't willing to send troops unless they felt the confederates could support themselves this off course being a catch 21 sort of thing because if the feds could support themselves then they wouldn't have required the red coats anyway. Meanwhile the french would have only have gotten involved if British empire did.

As for troop quality the Confederates had some good quality troops in amongst them and some very good officers but were poorly supplied allowing the industrialised north to out produce them.
As for who were the bad guys? well as Tiger said its so many shades of grey with both sides doing questionable things. Its lkind of like asking whats better Pepsi or Coke?
 

DeletedUser

As for who were the bad guys? well as Tiger said its so many shades of grey with both sides doing questionable things. Its lkind of like asking whats better Pepsi or Coke?

The answer of course being Dr.Pepper, providing a physical and metaphorical answer.
 

DeletedUser

Lincoln was a marked man ever since he marched his armies. The Southern army was a rabble - petty farmers, armed with outdated weapons, the only real soldiers being the trained cavalry. The Southern states were doomed to failiure.

lol no they werent. if the southerners were petty farmers than the yankees were all simple jacks. the south killed twice as many people as the union did and with a army force half the size. the union had to kill a bunch of noncombatents and women to get anywhere like what happend with shermans march. he massacered the innocent and scorched the earth. the south couldnt rebuild and didnt want to lose more people to such terrooristic tactics.

the southern states werent ever doomed to failure. they could have held their land had they not marched into the north and threw away their people at gettysberg. that was an unessasary battle and it nocked them off their roll. with 2 million people the union still got their buts handed to them.



Where Europe was concerned although the British empire was "backing" the Confederates and were perfectly happy to send them Enfield rifles etc they weren't willing to send troops unless they felt the confederates could support themselves this off course being a catch 21 sort of thing because if the feds could support themselves then they wouldn't have required the red coats anyway. Meanwhile the french would have only have gotten involved if British empire did.

As for troop quality the Confederates had some good quality troops in amongst them and some very good officers but were poorly supplied allowing the industrialised north to out produce them.
As for who were the bad guys? well as Tiger said its so many shades of grey with both sides doing questionable things. Its lkind of like asking whats better Pepsi or Coke?

it wasnt just britain and france though. everyone supporeted the confederacy except pretty much mexico because lincoln promised them that he would help liberate them from Maximillian the 1st. the confederates wanted mexico though, for there own causes and not just to liberate them, and since france had it they were on the same side. the french were busy with mexican rebels though so they couldnt just send cheap guns to the confederates.

even the indians fought for the confederates. nobody liked the union they cause like i said they were imperialists, and they didnt value the lives of their soldiers..
 

DeletedUser30834

That's a good point about Europe. A lot of Europe countries had become somewhat dependent on the cotton and textiles being shipped from the southern states and had the south not been the aggressors in firing the first shot, they would have likely sent troops to the defense of the south to maintain this supply line. Of course France was still smarting from the defeat by England some 50 years before and England was going through the Victorian era where middle class and the working class people were demanding more say in government and getting it. This is also where Lincoln's emancipation proclamation played a significant role, Most of Europe's citizens deplored slavery and it would have been political suicide for England or France to intervene for the south after that while it effectivly changed nothing for Lincoln other then gaining more support back home. France already set sights on overtaking Mexico and didn't want to risk upsetting that.

Interestingly, Russia played somewhat of a large role for the North in the process as they sent a fleet of naval Ships on a "peace mission" to the US north and set about being paraded around the country given the red carpet treatment as ambassadors for freedom. This significantly upped the anti for Europe to get involved as they would likely have to defeat the Russian Navy as well as the North's navy and at this time, the US had one of the strongest navies' in the world with seamen second to none. This also freed up the North's naval fleet to patrol and intercept supply and economic vessels entering or leaving the south with the Russian Fleet "peacefully" sitting in our harbors and other areas that the navy would have had to use considerable resources to protect.

Something of a fascinating note is the portrayal of the south as dirt farmers with sticks and stones or hunting riffles. The reality is that at the time, hunting riffles did not have a significant disadvantage from military riffles and in some cases were actually better. Cartridge ammunition as well as conical bullets and riffled barrels, despite being discovered and in use in other lands, did not become common in the American Civil War and was introduced from a military perspective after the war started and was dragged on for a while. Of course these are some improvements that were common in hunting riffles.

But the south was not unlike the North. Most of their command structure was educated at the very same placed the North's command was. There are battles that are still studied to this day that happened in the civil war for this very reason. We have to remember, at the time, the United States did not have a standing army like we have today. It was at only 16,000 troops, some of which ended up in the south when the southern states seceded. In contrast, during the height of the civil war, each side had in excess of 1 million troops and by one count, the north had 2 million troops at one time. So outside the command structure, most of the units were all dirt farmers in a state militia units who learned to shoot from hunting and a very basic boot camp regiment. We lucked out on having a powerful standing navy due to Thomas Jefferson's efforts at standing up against the Ottoman empire and his vision of protecting our borders by protecting the areas and seas around them.

If anything, the southern states had a military advantage and they were where the majority of the troops were pulled from to fight the Mexican-American war just 15 or so years before the civil war. The south was winning most battles and by most accounts, the war during the first two years.
 

DeletedUser16008

United States is an interesting term as it should read occupied and forcibly imposed United States.

Ironic that after having obtained independence from Britain a few decades earlier, so fiercely and hard won that independence later became an excuse to reimpose imperialism

Sad how easy it was to turn on ones own after being so vocal about liberty and independence before.
 

DeletedUser30834

United States is an interesting term as it should read occupied and forcibly imposed United States.

Ironic that after having obtained independence from Britain a few decades earlier, so fiercely and hard won that independence later became an excuse to reimpose imperialism

Sad how easy it was to turn on ones own after being so vocal about liberty and independence before.
I'm not really sure why you think that, up until the civil war, the US had not participated in imperialism by definition and outside of the civil war, it wasn't until almost the 1900's that it acted officially as a state to pursue it. And we ended up giving the Philippians independence circa 1935 ending our brief association with it.
 

DeletedUser16008

I'm not really sure why you think that, up until the civil war, the US had not participated in imperialism by definition and outside of the civil war, it wasn't until almost the 1900's that it acted officially as a state to pursue it. And we ended up giving the Philippians independence circa 1935 ending our brief association with it.

It is essentially what it was as states that withdrew were forced back in, effectively imperialism imposed on those states and a couple of decades later official internationally. You cannot tell me that fighting a war to impose one sides will on the other defines liberty or independence in any way, shape of form.

What would you call it ?
 

DeletedUser30834

well, i conceded the civil war was an imperialist act by definition, but you said a few decades later which made me think you were going on about something else.

The civil war was almost 9 decades from when we initially separated from England. Around my parts, that's generally a bit more then a few which indicates two or three. I see from the definition of it, few actually means not many so my presumption was off from the start.
 

DeletedUser

lol no they werent. if the southerners were petty farmers than the yankees were all simple jacks. the south killed twice as many people as the union did and with a army force half the size. the union had to kill a bunch of noncombatents and women to get anywhere like what happend with shermans march. he massacered the innocent and scorched the earth. the south couldnt rebuild and didnt want to lose more people to such terrooristic tactics.


The southerners were petty farmers, though. The South based itself upon an agrarian ideal, and by seceding didn't have access to the manufacturing plants the North had. They didn't have the number of supplies and guns the North had, and were at a disadvantage. The war still employed tactics used in the Revolutionary War, just meet up on some open land, and fire into each other. Its not even a matter of who were better soldiers, but who had the numbers, supplies, and the training/discipline to stand their ground while being shot at.

Sherman's March was kind of brilliant though. He marched into enemy lines, looted and burned towns, and destroyed everything in his path. That kind of messes with the other side psychologically. You know you've lost a war when an army can march into your territory and just destroy everything.




the southern states werent ever doomed to failure. they could have held their land had they not marched into the north and threw away their people at gettysberg. that was an unessasary battle and it nocked them off their roll. with 2 million people the union still got their buts handed to them.
Honestly, the only advantages the South had was potential European support, which wouldn't be that great, and the fact that they were fighting a defensive war. They had the advantage in the South as they knew the land, and Lincoln would have had to march into the South to break their will. They could've played this advantage, but once again, with limited supplies, and waning support, they wouldn't have lasted long just being cooped up in the South and playing defense.

Lee's only chance for resolving the war quickly was to shock the North. Probably why he was motivated to order marches into Northern / Middle States, so he'd shock the North into submitting to Southern wishes. It was either resolve the war by scaring the North, which he failed to do, or wait out as the North effectively sieges the entire South.

it wasnt just britain and france though. everyone supporeted the confederacy except pretty much mexico because lincoln promised them that he would help liberate them from Maximillian the 1st. the confederates wanted mexico though, for there own causes and not just to liberate them, and since france had it they were on the same side. the french were busy with mexican rebels though so they couldnt just send cheap guns to the confederates.

even the indians fought for the confederates. nobody liked the union they cause like i said they were imperialists, and they didnt value the lives of their soldiers..

The only motivation for Europe to support the South would be that it produced cotton, but the North produced other goods as well, such as grain, and many industrial goods. Also, after Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation, he put the war under the guise of being about slavery, which pretty much everyone in Europe had already abolished. No European country would fully support the Confederacy, knowing the Confederacy would absolutely lose, and had been painted as evil supporters of slavery.

Victor kruger said:
It is essentially what it was as states that withdrew were forced back in, effectively imperialism imposed on those states and a couple of decades later official internationally. You cannot tell me that fighting a war to impose one sides will on the other defines liberty or independence in any way, shape of form.

What would you call it ?

It is quite ironic actually. The Gettysburg Address, "Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation, so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure" basically states that the war was to preserve democracy. I feel like Lincoln thought it was his duty to protect democracy in the world, he felt that if the world saw that America, the "democratic" nation of the world, were to fall apart, then democracy wouldn't be copied and would die in the world. (and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.)
 
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DeletedUser30834

I do not think Lincoln was worried about what others thought or democracy in and of itself. He was worried about the Union, or the government of the US being legit. This is pretty well articulated By Lincoln himself in his first inaugural address.

http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres31.html

I think you completely underestimate the south too- They were not lacking in ingenuity, resilience, training or resolve and were initially winning the war over the first two years of it. When the south left the union, they did not surrender every garrison, fort, or military implement to the union, they kept them for their own use. That is why Fort Sumter was even an issue, it was the one fort in southern territory at the start of the war that was still occupied and controlled by the Union.
 

DeletedUser

The civil war was almost 9 decades from when we initially separated from England. Around my parts, that's generally a bit more then a few which indicates two or three. I see from the definition of it, few actually means not many so my presumption was off from the start.
5 if you take the war of 1812 into hands though. it was a short time after things setled down with the english.


The southerners were petty farmers, though. The South based itself upon an agrarian ideal, and by seceding didn't have access to the manufacturing plants the North had. They didn't have the number of supplies and guns the North had, and were at a disadvantage. The war still employed tactics used in the Revolutionary War, just meet up on some open land, and fire into each other. Its not even a matter of who were better soldiers, but who had the numbers, supplies, and the training/discipline to stand their ground while being shot at.

Um? No... in nearly every battle, the southerners took more lives than the north. the south were outnumbered in almost every battle they partisipated in but they still won those battles... killing alot more poepel.


Sherman's March was kind of brilliant though. He marched into enemy lines, looted and burned towns, and destroyed everything in his path. That kind of messes with the other side psychologically. You know you've lost a war when an army can march into your territory and just destroy everything.
If we were to do the same thing today we would be held for war crimes though. what sherman did was immoral and evil nobody can dispute that. he was worse than Captain Quantrill, who only burned Lawrence, Kansas to the ground in rattleation for similar attacks on Missouri.




Honestly, the only advantages the South had was potential European support, which wouldn't be that great, and the fact that they were fighting a defensive war. They had the advantage in the South as they knew the land, and Lincoln would have had to march into the South to break their will. They could've played this advantage, but once again, with limited supplies, and waning support, they wouldn't have lasted long just being cooped up in the South and playing defense.
theres no agument about them being able to win here. sure theyd have lost. they still killed moar... and they were truely the good guys, who could only be made evil by the union to look bad.



It was either resolve the war by scaring the North, which he failed to do, or wait out as the North effectively sieges the entire South.
if you ask me they werent very effective until the south didnt have enough men to fight back..



The only motivation for Europe to support the South would be that it produced cotton
this is not intirely right. europe knew the south wanted to focus on their states-america alone, and that they wouldnt be getting involved in their interests or trying to take colonies outside the americas. by supporting the south they knew the upper americas with the corporate people and expansionists would be crippled enough to hold off any future attacks on other countries.


I feel like Lincoln thought it was his duty to protect democracy in the world, he felt that if the world saw that America, the "democratic" nation of the world, were to fall apart, then democracy wouldn't be copied and would die in the world. (and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.)
the south did not want to destroy the union. they only wanted to leave it. like you said yourself the north was sufishent enough to sustein themselves. they could funtshin fine without the south.
 

DeletedUser16008

well, i conceded the civil war was an imperialist act by definition, but you said a few decades later which made me think you were going on about something else.

The civil war was almost 9 decades from when we initially separated from England. Around my parts, that's generally a bit more then a few which indicates two or three. I see from the definition of it, few actually means not many so my presumption was off from the start.

I should have been clearer m8 the quote below is what I was thinking of re things with the British

5 if you take the war of 1812 into hands though. it was a short time after things setled down with the english.

BTW it was the British not English since 2/3 of the British army was made up of Scots Irish and Welsh, without whom the British Empire would have gotten nowhere.

My sympathies have always been with the south as the liberty of man and the right to choose inclusion rather than be forced, strikes a chord with me. No less than our civil war here where it was the common People vs the Arisocrats ( roundheads vs cavaliers ) only here the people won out chopped off the monarchs head and that was that ( thankfully ) unlike France that ended up virtually committing genocide on half its people and plunging Europe into bloody war. Which was just as well for the Americas as it kept all of us busy or things could and probably would have been very different indeed.
 

DeletedUser30834

I should have been clearer m8 the quote below is what I was thinking of re things with the British
I don't really count the war of 1812 as it ended in an agreement to pretend it didn't happen more or less. But I can see where the technicality of it happening could leave that impression.

I have to say, speaking of the south not being prepared, one of the best or should I say most devastating battles of the war of 1812 was conducted by mostly southern dirt farmers who took up arms. The battle of New Orleans which happened after the Treaty of Ghent didn't go well for the British as apposed to the attacks in the northern areas of the country. With a vastly superior force of regular troops and quite a few mistakes in the process, the British suffered something like 300 dead, 1200 wounded, and 500 or so missing or captured. In contrast, the American forces about 1/3 the size composed largely of volunteers (read the dirt farmers in the south) suffered about 15 dead, 40 or so wounded, and about 20 troops missing or captured.

Anyone who thinks the south wasn't a formidable opponent in the civil war just isn't looking in the right directions.
 

DeletedUser16008

I don't really count the war of 1812 as it ended in an agreement to pretend it didn't happen more or less. But I can see where the technicality of it happening could leave that impression.

I have to say, speaking of the south not being prepared, one of the best or should I say most devastating battles of the war of 1812 was conducted by mostly southern dirt farmers who took up arms. The battle of New Orleans which happened after the Treaty of Ghent didn't go well for the British as apposed to the attacks in the northern areas of the country. With a vastly superior force of regular troops and quite a few mistakes in the process, the British suffered something like 300 dead, 1200 wounded, and 500 or so missing or captured. In contrast, the American forces about 1/3 the size composed largely of volunteers (read the dirt farmers in the south) suffered about 15 dead, 40 or so wounded, and about 20 troops missing or captured.

Anyone who thinks the south wasn't a formidable opponent in the civil war just isn't looking in the right directions.

Agreed the farmers were crack shots from hunting etc. It should be mentioned that Britain at the time had all its attn firmly on Europe and 90% of the vets and capable generals were engaged there leaving the dross and unwanted to do their best in the rest of the empire. Had for instance Wellington ever set foot in America things would have been very different without a doubt ... When things get close to home re a threat any nation will focus on what is more pressing, Napoleon was certainly the greatest threat that Britain and indeed Europe ever faced during that time period.

interestingly the rules of war were surprisingly civil in those times and big sums of money exchanged for officers if captured. So much so some got very rich off it and was rare to have a rank officer killed if captured rather than to ransom back for a tidy sum. The real money however was made on the high seas and by the navy in prize money. So successful and profitable was it and useful, maritime law was rolled out to permeate regular law, governing the land and the people and actually governs a lot of todays ownership laws. Including the way a court is set up to look like the deck of a ship and the wording of your name in capital lettering from birth certificate to driving licence... property you are from the day you are born all entwined in the use of maritime law and put into common practise. Most of which if learnt and used properly protects and absolves you of many laws that are supposedly there but actually unenforceable if you know the game and what you do not have to adhere to if worded correctly in court today.
 
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DeletedUser30834

Well civil as in those who feared the same treatment if it happened to them ensured decent treatment of certain captives in the expectation of the same. But on the whole, they barely provided for the regular enlisted man. In some cases, POW camps consisted of several ropes strung around a perimeter to mark a boundary with the prisoners being told if they cross the first line they will be shot. There often was no or not enough shelter or insufficient nutritional rations. The armies would plunder cities and farms requisitioning provisions, sometimes even forcing residents into the cold and using their homes as barracks and commend posts.

Its nothing like the clean wars we see now where we pay people back for breaking their windows or shooting their livestock because of a firefight with the enemy in front of their homes.
 
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