the honor system

DeletedUser36182

Morticians will show an 'honor value' reflecting the skill of opponents you challenge.
When a town member completes a duel against another player, the stats of both players are compared. If the challenger has significantly stronger skills than the defender, their town loses an honor point, otherwise one is gained. Honor values are not backdated; all towns start at 0.
Currently this value is only a statistic. We are evaluating possibilities if and how this can be implemented as a gameplay functionality.
Since this describes nearly all of the challengers I've encountered, how stiff do you think the penalties be??? I can't see how a town stat would help end this practice. Would that one bad apple effect everyone who lives in that town causing negative peer pressure thru increased fees etc?

Since this is an rpg, shouldn't there be black and white hats meaning that at some point players who adopt that style of play should become outlaws. There should be the automatic issue of a bounty determined by level of honor. Once a bounty has been collected they are concidered arrested and would have to pay a fine according to bounty ammount and honor level or serve time where money earned would go directly towards paying the fine. XP would not be accrued until fine is paid. Dueling would be off limits as well. Their honor could be replenished by passage of time, but only to zero Once the fine is paid they can continue with their life of crime, outstanding warrants or not should they chose to do so.

Town sheriffs should have a certain level of honor to even hold the office and have their own buffs to aide in apprehending these nefarious characters. A town with a sheriff could also have a deputy(s). Deputies would also have similar buffs available. One deputy per 15 residents. To prevent this from being exploited it should only be active when the opponent has a bounty on them.

Also there seems to be an exploit were players issue and then collect their own bounties to increase their stats that hasn't been addressed.
 
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DeletedUser

Personally, I don't see the honor system working well at all, unless they add some indicator to the duel interfaces letting you know in advance if a duel would be honorable or not. Currently, if I'm character level 100 and duel another player who is character level 100, I'd have know idea if the duel is honorable or not. I don't really want to have to keep spreadsheets of opponents, and their level of honor would change anyway if either of us changed AP/SP.

I think town peer pressure would help in some cases with dishonorable dueling. I've been in towns and alliances that had special rules regarding dueling and they would kick out those who repeatedly broke those rules.

Of course, there will also be a few players / towns that will try to be the most dishonorable. Some people like to be the villain, and in moderation that is not necessarily a bad thing.

Maybe as punishment for high levels of dishonor, 50/100/..., it would make it so dueling these players would not be dishonorable as they are outlawed. That way town guardians would not be punished for bringing the outlaw to justice.
 

DeletedUser33353

Interesting idea, but I will see how it plays out before I comment. Personally, I just shoot the closest people in the duel window,and spread out from there :)
 

DeletedUser37520

What I find most disturbing is the fact that InnoGames has taken it upon themselves to decide what it a honorable duel and what's not. Is it honorable to duel a person that through the history of your town always have been an idiot towards your town members and may even have dueled them before? Of course it's, but probably not according to InnoGames. Is it honorable to duel another dueler the minutes after a fort battle and knocked that person out? Not exactly, but I don't think InnoGames takes that into consideration. Would love to see me wrong on this one, but I highly doubt it.

I also fail to see the point of this system. Is it an attempt to try and stop 0%-duelers (10%-duelers today) and an attempt to try to encourage duels between other duelers? If that's the case, then it's a giant failure. 0%-duelers have never cared about rank, they're already in a lower level than everyone else and most of them (including me) will just laugh at this number as a sign of a job well done. Personally I'll try to get the honor value as low as possible, that's way more fun.

Just a quick comment on the raise to 10% and that's that it will backfire, pretty heavily. People that previously 0%-dueled before will not suddenly start duel other duelers, they'll just duel the ones with the lowest duel level to try and keep their own duel level as low as possible. InnoGames are effectively discouraging duels between real duelers and instead forcing people that wants to keep their duel level low to duel other people with low duel level (adventurers, questers, workers or extremely low leveled duelers).
 
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DeletedUser36979

...
Is this a joke? Seriously?

The joke here is duelers crying because they now are secured experience everytime they win, and keeps whining about not enough targets to duel... with the 450 duel-level-cap you have enough targets, just level up and start dueling real duelers.
Of course that won't happen, since one of the main reasons for low-level low-mots are they can't win against a dueler.

Players that don't want to duel, do one of three things:

1. They make sure they are KO'ed, by self-KOing against duelers
2. They leave town
3. They leave the game

So to get more targets, the game needs more players that wants to duel.

As long as the low-mots keep mugging the easy targets just to get a nice win/loss ratio, this game will suffer and more people will leave, and the low-mots will cry some more because the easy targets disappear, and they don't have anyone to bully.

A lot of servers are already experiencing severe lack of players and activity. Some have less than 200 registered players already.
Not saying that dueling is the only problem for this, but it is certainly a part of it, and these changes are a small step in keeping more people around, since they won't get targeted as often. And that is exactly what the game needs... More players!!!
 

DeletedUser36559

Not a bad idea... I'm just not sure how the Honour system works as a whole. I've KO'ed players and it's Honorable for me so I'm not sure how it works out that way. Town stats won't help since it's just a number and 10 mot duelers don't really care about that number.
 

DeletedUser36182

Inno maintains that dueling is the core of the game yet it seems to be the poorest thought out aspect of the game. This whole honor idea is a fine example. Instead of rewarding those with integrity it's seems more a slap on the wrist to those who don't know the meaning of the word.

In history most of the outlaws of the old west were displaced remnants of the civil war who held a grudge against the Yankee bankers and government. There were also evil land barons/merchants like The House in New Mexico (Lincoln County wars) which cultivated a thug mentality to use to their advantage. The outlaw of the west was a thing of the past by the turn of the twentieth century.

The decreasing motivation needs serious rework. Maybe just reducing money earned and xp would always accumulate at the same rate. I'm pretty sure that those who don't duel weaker players would love see those bullies have to start playing with the big boys. The requirement to duel needs to go. There's no other mandated aspect in this game. If I choose not to quest there's no requirement to do so, the same with fort fighting.

I cannot understand why Inno insists this is such an integral part of the game. It seems foolish to believe a large percentage of people in the old west were killers and outlaws.
 
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DeletedUser35520

yea im not impressed with the honor system. For starters, once players see that they duel someone who is skilled to duel and wearing duel gear, but its a dishonorable to win, because your level is higher, what sense is that. I have like 15 targets i can duel because most have been equipping a bible and moving down out of range, so I am penalized honor or forced to duel the same like 4 people over and over? But the largest problem is the zero use for it. It literally means nothing and the amount of players who would want a positive honor, is probably doubled by the amount who would like or be fine with a dishonorable. You have to actually reward players for playing the right way, open up an honor point store that can be used to make town purchases (small stuff like bayos for all or energy buffs etc). That might not only encourage more dueling, but dueling the way it was intended. As is, I don't think this update really changes anything about the game. Most non duelers will still KO themselves, most zero mots will enjoy being dishonorable, and no one will say let's start dueling again for honor points, because they have no actual value.
 

Pankreas PorFavor

Well-Known Member
sooooo... you're telling me that this is a dishonorable duel? this guy has no dueling skills, it's an easy win? maybe even a nice cash prize to go with that? hmmmmm... before this update I knew quite well who is an easy target, who will be a challenge, who will beat me. that's what a dueler does - know his targets. it doesn't matter if you are an XP or 0mot dueler, you know your targets.
and now you are introducing a system that will help me identify weak targets even easier? why? you think conscience and guilt will play a role now? it didn't before, what's different? I'll have negative honor points? so what? duel will give me -10 honor points, but I might get $3000, another win and a KO for my stats. cool, let me click that duel button! I am already known as a dishonorable dueler, now there's another number next to my name indicating that, together with the bounty that's already there because of the same reason.

Innogames, if you want to separate duelers and non-duelers - DO IT ALREADY! checkbox in the settings - "make me duel free" = end of story. or wait with the honor points system until you figure out what you will do with them. test it in beta, not here. like, if you were exposed to X dishonorable attacks in Y days - you're duel protected for the next Z days. or, if you initiated X dishonorable attacks in Y days, your duel motivation is increased for Z%, and/or you get a penalty on the cash you win in a duel etc.
now, let me get back to attacking easy targets in Colorado, and being an easy target in all other worlds. attackers welcome, I always carry some cash with me to make it worth your while!
 

DeletedUser36559

All I can see is the 0 mots are racking in as many dishonorable duels as physically possible so it hasn't changed anything. I have all points in construction yet I'm getting a lot of dishonorable duels for attacking people in duel gear. All the high lvl duel players are in work gear and the low lvl duel players are also in work gear so all dishonorable for me and even if they are in duel gear I still get a dishonorable duel. When I win and KO players it's 'Honourable' and when I lose or get KO'ed it's 'dishonourable'.
 
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DeletedUser35520

the setup is just dumb. i am literally dueling someone who's actual level is 3 levels higher than mine, they have dueling gear on, a winning duel record, plus event winner weapon set. I win the duel, but because my duel level is higher its a dishonorable win. Its just moronic and personally makes me not even want to bother with the nonsense of it. it seems like something that was instituted by someone who has never played the game and certainly no one can argue at this point it does not appear to be well thought out
 

DeletedUser36182

Haven't found a higher lower combo, but in my brief trial wearing my duel gear.

game level, duel level, duel gear, honorable, class
+3, +52, no, yes, A
-5, +43, yes, yes, A
-10, +22, mix, yes, S
-12, +72, yes, yes, D


The dueling doesn't really interest me, but it seems like broad range is honorable.
 
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Pankreas PorFavor

Well-Known Member
ok.. after these changes I am only dueling players visible in the duel screen list. that means they initiated duels in the last 30 days, they duel - more or less regularly, they aren't pure workers or fort fighters.
still, only 1 out of 4 duels was tagged as an honorable duel. what am I supposed to do? reskill to be worse at dueling? before I attack, how do I know if the duel will be honorable or not? I try to do the "right thing" (even though I don't agree that anyone should be exempt from dueling), but this system doesn't really help me do that...
 

DeletedUser35120

This honor system so far has been pretty dumb :( I mean.. the calculations of how the duel is honorable and dishonorable are totally faulty. I think the devs should either fix it, or just remove this honor thing..
 

DeletedUser26820

Just me, but I think this is simply the first step in a multi step process towards a "measurement" that might be later incorporated into the game that actually means something.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but do dueling honor points, at this time, either positively or negatively impact a toon or a town's ranking?

Because if they don't, why get so worked up about it????

If a town's dueling honor points can't fall below 0, we have a floor.
It's not going negative and it's not penalizing your town points or ranking.

But one next step I'd like to see is in a dueling report, an added line of "As Challenger of this duel, you received X honor points for your town."

Until it impacts a toon or town, it's a test. Relax.

This has already probably been considered, but an "honorable" duel calculation would be as such:

Initiate Duel up in dueling level and win: +2 honor points
Initiate Duel the same dueling level and win: +1 honor point
Initiate Duel up in dueling level and lose: +1 honor point
Initiate Duel the same dueling level and lose: 0 honor points
Initiate Duel down in dueling level and win: 0 honor points
Initiate Duel down in dueling level and lose: -2 honor points

Second step would be to have honor points actually affect a town's points in town rankings thru its Duel Points.

Until then, again, it's just a first step and for all practical purposes doesn't mean anything right now.
 

Pankreas PorFavor

Well-Known Member
- worked up? no, just giving feedback. a feedback that says - please, don't implement ideas that aren't thought out.
- honor points CAN go below zero.
- it's a test? well, that's what beta is for...
- it doesn't mean anything now? OK. I am accumulating negative honor points without knowing I will get them before the duel, and I don't know what they will eventually be used for (I doubt that I will get any rewards for it...). so here's more feedback for Inno - if/when you decide to do something with those honor points, please reset the counter.
 

DeletedUser36182

I stand corrected.


today's test...


game level, duel level, duel gear, honorable, class
-7, +27, yes, yes, S
-2, +34, mix, yes, A
+5, -14, yes, no, A
+2, -22, yes, no, S

It doesn't seem to matter what gear they are using, or what their game level is. It seems just the dueling level determines whether or not a duel is honorable or not. I'm guessing that once you reach 450 it may go by game level then.

Since each of these involved a player higher in some respect to my toon I think the formula is seriously flawed and doesn't demonstrate anything other than Inno's inability to think thru a project before releasing it.

My apologies to anyone I interfered with during this testing.
 
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DeletedUser34295

I think the system is really weird, not as a system in itself, but that we're going to have to go in blind and hope for the best. There should be some kind of number/marker to show us whether a duel will be considered honourable or not before we go through with it.
 

DeletedUser33923

So, at duel lvl 177 I find 6 opponents within 2 hrs. To gain honour I should find targets manually and travel all day, ok. FF was already ruined, then EXP dueling was nerfed to make it impossible to catch top duelers. Now this system. If all the west greatest towns were about one person building church, you should really update the graphics. SimCity looks way more attractive.

And if anyone says duelers were not that big part of that era, just take a look how many forts were fought between white people. Zero?

I retired from active playing on 9 servers (3 dueling toons), have fun without me, but still remember, you can't make a good western without evil villains. :D
 
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