Duelling changes - The West Beta!

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DeletedUser29831

Whatever changes are implemented, or what is there already, players will always find "bugs" or tweaks to make the game better for them. And if we change the game, some will win, and some will loose. Stat padders will always go after easy targets, but making targets harder to hit(motivation theme), will hurt those that find duelling the main thing. If we make it optional to duel, duelling will really get hurt. Atm we have several aspects of the game that needs a work-over, duelling is one of them. Hopefully this update will make duelling more interesting for more people. For those uf us not into duelling, we will find ways to adapt, either by KO or other means. My point is, I welcome change for the cause of change, as long as the devs are listening to the feedback from the players. The game needs changes, not only in duelling. Hopefully we will see a work over on fort fights later. Anyone know when the roadmap for 2015 is coming up?
 

DeletedUser22685

Anyone know when the roadmap for 2015 is coming up?

The Roadmap isn't far away. It was being finalised last I heard, and that was a while ago. Anyway, you're right that forts are in desperate need of a makeover, and so is duelling. This update is only the first of a few required changes. I think we can all agree that the formula needs fixing, but it's a good thing for the system to be sound before the formula is improved. It's a step in the right direction, which IMO can only be taken as a positive.
 

Reyne

Well-Known Member
You've been playing since 2008. I find it hard to believe that you don't remember what it was like before job KOs were a viable option or when duelling was actually popular. As such I fail to see how you can be under the impression that the removal of job KOs makes it impossible for you to avoid being duelled.

The mortician is completely irrelevant. I don't know why you're focusing on that point. Stat padding has not been and will never be taken into consideration as a legitimate argument for or against a change. Aside from that, the morticians of almost all non-duelling towns are already a long way in the red and therefore have 0 duel points in the rankings, so even with intentional losses there will be no negative effect unless you're seriously worried about the numbers alone, in which case I don't need to say anything more.



This is ridiculous and I'm tired of seeing it used as an argument. You've just listed many of the advantages that come with being a member of a town, so why is it unthinkable for there to be a single disadvantage in the form of incoming duels? The duelling system was designed the way it is with that specifically in mind. I don't know how many times I've made this point now and I haven't received a single response, which says a lot about the validity of the claims I'm arguing against. Even if you are a member of a town there's a completely viable workaround if you're willing to put just a small amount of effort into being able to play the way you'd like to play. I really don't think it's too much to ask. After all, we rarely get something for nothing, which is what people seem to be expecting.

I never, ever claimed that dueling wasn't a part of the game. Fine. Forget the mortician. No worries. So we should have some risk. I get that. I think hard NPC opponents and high danger jobs were risk enough, but that's just me. So, okay. So send the duelers in. But you still haven't addressed another point that IS a valid complaint: Quest site camping. All are vulnerable, but the middle of the map is a paradise for duelers.

Okay. I've spoken up for the non-dueling population. Not that I expected anything positive in the responses, but you know I had to do it. Harping over.
 

DeletedUser33353

I never, ever claimed that dueling wasn't a part of the game. Fine. Forget the mortician. No worries. So we should have some risk. I get that. I think hard NPC opponents and high danger jobs were risk enough, but that's just me. So, okay. So send the duelers in. But you still haven't addressed another point that IS a valid complaint: Quest site camping. All are vulnerable, but the middle of the map is a paradise for duelers.

Okay. I've spoken up for the non-dueling population. Not that I expected anything positive in the responses, but you know I had to do it. Harping over.


All are valid points Reyne, the whole point of having a discussion. Glad that you have pointed out a few items that may hopefully be addressed.

The quest site camping, lol.....that is something that any dueler will gladly do though(guilty of it myself), easy money usually.
 

delldell56

Well-Known Member
I never, ever claimed that dueling wasn't a part of the game. Fine. Forget the mortician. No worries. So we should have some risk. I get that. I think hard NPC opponents and high danger jobs were risk enough, but that's just me. So, okay. So send the duelers in. But you still haven't addressed another point that IS a valid complaint: Quest site camping. All are vulnerable, but the middle of the map is a paradise for duelers.

Okay. I've spoken up for the non-dueling population. Not that I expected anything positive in the responses, but you know I had to do it. Harping over.

I think I can address your concerns from the "stupid duelers. What part of I am not interested in the dueling part of the game didn't you get" point of view, as most people know I am extremely sensitive about this. Mostly, I like to play townless and have the freedom of doing whatever I want to do, and play whatever way I like. But on some worlds, I've made a commitment to play as part of a group (and in certain cases, I am in a town because someone's kidnapped me and won't let me go), and have to stick with the troubles of dealing with duelers. Someone dueling me irks me, but it's fine; it's part of the game. Someone camping me, I find it unacceptable and is a good reason why a lot of people have quit the game.

You speak of quest side camping. I remember a time ages ago, when we had to live with duelers camping our hotels, and dueling us from our saloons no matter where on the map we were at the time. You'd be walking to a fort to sign up for a battle, and almost arriving *BAM!*: a dueler camping your town, miles away, would KO you or take most of your HP from your saloon, rendering you useless for said fight, since we didn't have HP refillers back then. Since we had one of those buggers living in our hotel for over a year, sleeping after hitting our townies one by one, asking friends to camp him back didn't work, as he would only stay awake for 10 minutes. So, I've been finding creative ways to KO myself since 2010. It's not fun, but gives me back control over it. You only need discipline, and if you've been killing yourself on a job every 48 hours, all you got to do is change the method. And when you know you are going to spend time in a dangerous spot (quest giver, building circus), plan ahead.

a) Retaliate: Whenever you are out of KO protection, gear up with your best dueling gear and go duel those you hold grudges against, until you die. The upside of this is that you get an additional daily bond that day for dueling 2 players, and some satisfaction if you win any.

b) Find a group of dueler friends and tell them that you might be crashing on them to get ko'd when you need it, and that you are trying to hurt yourself, not them. As long as you don't arrange stances or something like that, it doesn't count as pushing. And if they don't know when you will be taking a stumble on them, even better. Sometimes when those targets are far away, I just crash the nearest friend, then send a tele saying sorry.

c) Duel a couple of tough NPCs to lower your HP, then go duel someone you don't like or a surprised friend. Or go to a battle and after it's over and your HP is low, duel someone and die.

Takes more time, more energy, more planning. But the bottomline is that you get the same results you wanted from job KOs: duelers won't be able to bother you for 48 hours.
 

DeletedUser22685

But you still haven't addressed another point that IS a valid complaint: Quest site camping. All are vulnerable, but the middle of the map is a paradise for duelers.

Okay. I've spoken up for the non-dueling population. Not that I expected anything positive in the responses, but you know I had to do it. Harping over.

I can relate to what you're saying because believe it or not, it's been a long time since I've duelled actively. My perspective comes from years as a dueller, a fort fighter and a worker and my own personal benefit is the last thing on my mind when I participate in this thread.

I'm not as active as I once was, so I'm using a construction build at the moment and casually building my church at a leisurely pace. While my motivation's down, I tend to use up my energy doing jobs in the middle county. There are more duellers around than if I went and sat in, say, the north east corner of the map, but in the three months since I founded my town, I've been duelled 30 times (checked using my mortician). That's an average of approximately one duel per three days and I've never been KOed. In fact, I've never been missing more than 2k HP out of 6k total. The "duellers" who have hit me back to back are too bad to do a significant amount of damage, and the decent ones hit once and leave, which is generally how it works.

Granted, I do wear full Cullen's set and a Golden Tomahawk, which is enough of a deterrent for most worker beating njubs, but even with less intimidating gear I'd expect an average of perhaps one duel per day, also accounting for the fact that without 6k HP you'll probably be spending a couple of days KOed here and there.

I'll admit that quest givers can be popular camping locations during holiday quests (the ghost town during Halloween is an absolute duellers' paradise), but I've never had an issue with those as a non-dueller either. If you're travelling to a quest giver, just set yourself to sleep in the nearest town rather than sitting idle. Most holiday quests that involve quest givers don't take long to complete, so it's unlikely that you'll be duelled enough times whilst working or travelling to be KOed, and if you are, you get two days in which to come back and finish the quest in peace. I've never noticed an influx of campers around regular non-holiday quest givers. Regardless, camping now has absolutely NOTHING on camping when it was actually realistic to call it that, ie. when you could sit at someone's town and duel them no matter where they were on the map, then sleep immediately. No one job KOed then.

It's not that I can't understand the points being raised by non-duellers or that I'm incapable of seeing things from a certain perspective. It's just that, based on my own experience, I genuinely find the concerns being raised by so many job KO advocates here to be completely overblown. The mentality that the majority of non-duellers have adopted over the last couple of years is causing more of a problem than the update itself.

People don't seem to be afraid of duels because of any of the negative effects such as the possibility of losing money, the inconvenience of sleeping while you're online or the loss of HP before a fort battle. It's like having the ability to job KO for so long has bred some kind of irrational fear of duels themselves and everyone is absolutely determined to do whatever it takes to avoid the possibility of being duelled at all costs, regardless of whether it will actually happen more than once every three days or whether they even have anything to lose.

EDIT: And seeing dell's post has prompted me to include something more. I won't pretend that it's not possible to come across some njub dueller who does like to spend all day repeatedly hitting you or your town. In fact, I know what it's like more than most, having been the biggest tank on a world with a bounty of $200k and also having made it to rank 2 in the duel rankings and then respeccing to pure HP as an adventurer, in both cases refusing to job KO and being duelled up to twenty times every day (not even exaggerating). So I'm capable of dealing with that, but I'm not stupid enough to expect everyone to be the same. Dell's already made a great post regarding the strategies of overcoming campers, but I'll also throw in another one about asking your friends or allied duellers to KO the culprit. Job KOs have never been the only method of self defence.
 
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DeletedUser

I remember asking for help with a dueler who kept after after me - all i was told was "put a bounty on him" end of the day the changes are going to happen to benefit dueling no point saying its for any other reason, at the end of the day the only option you have for rpeace is go townless or play farmville (which i am told is a game on facebook)
any sugesstion for tempory protection is shot down with the usual "its part of the west even tho evidence shows it wasent - I think thats all some people are asking for -
 

Ripwise

Well-Known Member
I remember asking for help with a dueler who kept after after me - all i was told was "put a bounty on him" end of the day the changes are going to happen to benefit dueling no point saying its for any other reason, at the end of the day the only option you have for rpeace is go townless or play farmville (which i am told is a game on facebook)
any sugesstion for tempory protection is shot down with the usual "its part of the west even tho evidence shows it wasent - I think thats all some people are asking for -

Protection solution was always available, even before this job KO exploit/bug.

In steps: 1) Strip your clothes down 2) stand up as a duel stance 3) Go to duel window and press duel on the one that is obviously a dueler.

Voila, you are KOd and protected for 48 hours.

:D
 
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DeletedUser

Did i read somewhere along the lines they are extending or thinking off extending the KO time ?
 

DeletedUser22685

It doesn't need to go through I&B, as far as I know it may have already been written into the code.
 

Reyne

Well-Known Member
@delldell56 - Thanks for the suggestions. Yeah, I remember the days before the bug became popular. Back then your friends weren't so out of range that they could help you. Now it's "they are out of my range."
Regarding suggestion a) Retaliate: Whenever you are out of KO protection, gear up with your best dueling gear and go duel those you hold grudges against, until you die. The upside of this is that you get an additional daily bond that day for dueling 2 players, and some satisfaction if you win any.
, it only works if you are spec'ed at all for dueling. No amount of gear alone can help. It might help with protection a little, but when your skill and attribute points are all over the map so you can do all the jobs or all strength as a pure builder, then you are lacking points for dueling. :) As for the third suggestion, I'll have to do that. At least it will be at a time of my choosing. ;)

@Futu Thank you for your serious response to my post.

I have four different character types on different worlds. Talking about skill distribution, only one is a dueler. And strangely enough, it's my dueler that gets the snot beaten out of her the most. :D I've been trying to buy better gear/weapons. All my points are going to make her a better dueler. I just need to get over this guilt thing.

My worker is better equipped, a higher over all level, and because of so many points in strength and in better gear, I actually do a bit better. At least it generally takes twice to get me down to nothing.

My adventurer is moderately equipped but as I said earlier, the points are all over the map, likely will be until I get that third key.

My soldier sucks for gear but I'm skilling up for dueling defense. Still get thoroughly beaten. And it's not always possible to start a job in the recommended gear then switch to dueling gear. Sometimes, in order to complete the job you have to stay in the gear you started.

I will offer this advice. When you are traveling and have a long way to go, instead of staying at the job site for the whole long travel period, make use of ghosts towns. There are plenty of them. Gear up for speed, set for at least four ghost towns getting you farther away from the quest site. Then change gear to duel defense. It may not prevent you from being dueled, but at least they will have to chase you down.
 

DeletedUser26820

I've got to admit that when I first saw the 5 bullet point proposed changes, just like for a lot of other folks, it was the loss of the job ko protection that jumped out at me also and made me ask, "What the hell?!?" I'm more surprised that it's considered to be a bug because I've been taking advantage of it for a year and have not gotten banned yet :)

But taken as a whole, the 5 points have merit that I'd like to try if & when implemented. No longer can a player permanently ruin their toon by getting their mot dueler's level so high they have extremely limited targets.

I'm looking forward to seeing it tested, rolled out, and will give it a shot...
 

DeletedUser33353

No longer can a player permanently ruin their toon by getting their mot dueler's level so high they have extremely limited targets.

I do not consider that as a ruined toon, but I do things differently. Besides, I was kinda shooting for a 1000 duel level.
 

DeletedUser22685

I do not consider that as a ruined toon, but I do things differently. Besides, I was kinda shooting for a 1000 duel level.

Not ruined if that's your goal, of course. I've only had one really extreme exp dueller and all that meant was that it was a different kind of challenge for me. I already had a couple of other duelling characters at the time, one of which was a hardcore 0 mot and the other was a level 120 duelling for an alliance. That's the good thing about being able to play multiple worlds at once.

That said, for those who don't have time to dedicate to running several characters and who wish to get the most enjoyment and longevity out of duelling, running out of targets is probably not in their best interests.
 

Deleted User - 1693871

I've got to admit that when I first saw the 5 bullet point proposed changes, just like for a lot of other folks, it was the loss of the job ko protection that jumped out at me also and made me ask, "What the hell?!?" I'm more surprised that it's considered to be a bug because I've been taking advantage of it for a year and have not gotten banned yet :)

It's not a bug though, is it. Something that developers take out of the game, then deliberately put back into the game, is not a bug. It's a feature.
 

DeletedUser

I've got to admit that when I first saw the 5 bullet point proposed changes, just like for a lot of other folks, it was the loss of the job ko protection that jumped out at me also and made me ask, "What the hell?!?" I'm more surprised that it's considered to be a bug because I've been taking advantage of it for a year and have not gotten banned yet :)

It was never a bug... the problem was that before the 2.0 arrived (it was before that but most people that are around here never played on the old versions) you would need, at least, 60 minutes to get a job KO. And that was when you could get the dangerous jobs available. A normal dueller would have only 2 jobs with a danger over 40% when he was at level 99 (using the best clothes). All the others would give... 10 damage, 30 damage, 100 damage if they where bad luck, for each 10 to 30 minutes of jobs.
So the easiest way to get a ko was going into a duel against a stronger opponent and remove the weapon and clothes in the last minute.
Then it came the 2.0 and you could get a 100% certified KO in 1 minute. ANYONE can get that right after level 87... Then it time was pushed to 15 seconds.
On the other side... losing a duel against an enemy would only give 500-600 experience, at most. When the Dueller ranking, that value jumped for nearly the 5000 experience per duel. So, right now, the easiest and mega hyper fastest way to get into the level 150 is duelling. You can get over 100 days of job experience just by making 30 duels.
That is the point that has been abused (over abused) by most of the recent accounts on ANY server.
With this change, that will make fast ranking dueller get less than 5% of there daily experience of today, they need to open more targets. So removing the job ko is the easiest one... because the other one was reactivating the jobs only to positive labour points and we would see only 4-5 player per world to make the hardest quests, like before the 2.0 was here. (and any dueller or fort fighter couldn´t get those dangerous jobs available)
 
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DeletedUser

Just a note from the beta forums regarding this change.


Please excuse the slight delay to the update. We have made the following additional changes:

* Duel protection will be extended to seventy two hours.

* If you are knocked out in a duel, other players will not be able to challenge you for 72 hours instead of 48 hours.

* Duel protection will be cancellable after twenty four hours by challenging another player at a reduced cost.

* Once the first 24 hours of your duel protection has elapsed, targets will reappear in the duel menu and be available to challenge. Challenging a target costs only 1 energy point instead of 12 and cancels your duel protection immediately, allowing other players to duel you in return.

* Furthermore, we have increased the minimum PvP duelling motivation and duelling experience rate of decay from 1% to 3%.

Watch this space for a release announcement!
 
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DeletedUser29831

Hm, some good, some bad, IMO. Love the extended period, still think 48 should be minimum. Don't understand the reduced cost, like the increased motivation nd decay rate
 
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