Dueler & Duels Adjustment

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DeletedUser

Proposal
The latest update, and the ensuing discussions, brought to attention a few longstanding problems as well as some new problems. Details of the existing problems are included at the bottom of this proposal. This is a cooperative report, taking into consideration posts and arguments posed by a bunch of rowdy spammers. A particular thanks to the handful that stepped up with data.

  • Duelers: Provide an additional bonus --- "In duels you receive a bonus of 50% to your appearance skill."
  • Stance: Reduce the effectiveness of Stance by 25% to 50% (variable).
  • Tactics/Appearance: Revert to version 1.32 the bonuses/benefits provided of Tactics/Appearance.
Current Workaround
Players avoid the dueler class as a substandard dueling class. Players that duel are being encouraged to build quite minimally, with Aim/Dodge being the two skills being emphasized far and above all other skills, leaving very little variation in duel builds.

Details
  • Duelers: Are the one of the least favored classes for their intentions. They provide no great advantages over other classes, at least not in respect to their ability to duel. Soldiers, by far, dominate against duelers, and this simply doesn't make sense. Indeed, duelers are discouraged from dueling Soldiers because soldiers have the advantage of "Tactics" increase, which leaves duelers to be on the defensive against rampaging Soldiers. Add to this, Soldiers have that nice HP bonus, making them tasty for melee builds. Worse (at least in some player's thoughts), duelers are not good for 0% motivation dueling because of their bonus to motivation recovery. Now, some people like that motivation bonus, so I don't see a point in changing that particular characteristic. However, there needs to be something that makes them a favorable choice for initiating duels. After all, historically (or at least in legend) they were the troublemakers.
  • Stance: Are simply too extreme an influence in a duel, which has been made particularly influential in the last update and thus converts dueling into a hit/miss game of figuring out the other person's stances, rather than stats having sufficient influence as to occasionally overcome stances. By reducing Stance' influence, and providing a degree of variability to their influence, Stances remain important, but not dominating.
  • Tactics/Appearance: The latest update changed the effectiveness of Tactics & Appearance, making them far less influential in a duel. While this may not seem like an issue, it does limit character builds, discouraging the use of these two skills and thus resulting in two-dimensional character concepts, as opposed to the more three-dimensional designs of the past. It is possible they were reduced to limit the effectiveness of a Soldier build, but I have an alternative direction to address this. By reverting Tactics/Appearance to their previous glory, they become yet again an influence in dueling. The added dueler Appearance stat bonus provides a means for duelers to play on a level playing field against Soldiers, with their high Tactics, whilst still leaving them less effective for protracted war (mass dueling) due to inherently less HPs than Soldiers. As such, reverting Tactics/Appearance, along with the other adjustments, brings balance to Soldier/Dueler classes that are long overdue.
Abuse Prevention
None noted at present

Administration
Does this idea meet the Ideas Guidelines & Criteria? Yes
Does this idea appear on any of the Previously Suggested Ideas List? Not in this form, No
 

DeletedUser

Giving duelers an appearance bonus has been suggested many times in the past three years, and I still (assuming appearance and tactics are reverted to their old effects) think it's a bad idea, and I always thought the ideas were not balanced.

As an offensive bonus, you're in complete control of when you get your bonus. The soldier's tactics bonus doesn't cause them to dominate as offensive duelers, it just gives an edge when being attacked. It's entirely for self defense and not to make it easier to grief non-duelers. A dueler appearance bonus wouldn't just apply to dueling soldiers, it would also apply to dueling other classes as well. If it counters the soldier bonus, it does far more than counter other classes, especially vs. people who aren't specced for dueling.
 

DeletedUser

I agree in principal that the dueller clas is not a great class for duelling, but if this was to happen, allow a one time class change for soldier class characters.
 

DeletedUser

Yeap, but a dueller is very good for fort battles, crit hits, plus the advantage for seeing other peoples statistics is very much to their advantage. I would much rather be a dueller than the advent I am......
 

DeletedUser

adjunni, the advantage of seeing other people's stats only applies to what they wear, it doesn't apply to their actual stats.

Hmm, Elmyr, you think maybe a 20% bonus instead of a 50% bonus? Or maybe a mere 10% bonus? Something that makes duelers better at initiating duels is what I'm thinking, as they need to be troublemakers, not merely substandard duelers when compared to soldiers. Soldiers get +3 levels up on weapons (+6 w/premium) and the hp bonus that allows soldiers to duel and reduel until they get the stances right, not to mention the benefit of tactics bonus that let's them not worry too much about being dueled, leaving them to focus on initiating duels. What does the dueler have in the dueling arena? Meager travel benefits and additional pocket change?!? Meh...
 

DeletedUser

20 % dueler bonus does sound about right

i think this is a really good ,practical ,common sense fix

(i just agreed with hellstromm?..whats the protocol now? do i hang myself?)
 

DeletedUser22685

I'm definitely up for reverting tactics and appearance to their previous effectiveness. I don't think there was any need to mess with them in the first place, a simple tweak to aim and dodge was all that was needed (although I still don't think any change was needed at all).

As for the dueller appearance bonus, I agree with Elmyr that it will have more of an effect on the non duelling characters that get farmed by duellers than it will on tactics soldiers. Other than that, there aren't many players left with the dueller class that actually duel, probably no more than there are of us poor worker and adventurer class duellers who are the ones that really have it tough and will continue to do so until they allow a class change.
 

DeletedUser20647

If it wasn't for that ugly increase of duel motivation, they would be awesome for 0 motivation dueling, because of the radius. That should be replaced with a new bonus.
 

DeletedUser9470

*chokes on my coffee*
wtf has happened to HS?
well well, I am surprised that HS has acknowledged that the recent duelling update was poor. especially after all the nonsense along the lines of:
[...]I performed over 300 duels, against PCs and NPCs, using 3 different builds, since the update. The changes implemented in this latest update are not signfiicant, and there is no imbalance that I've been able to determine. It is rather clear the problem presented here in this thread is very loud opinions, and not facts.

Please present facts to the table, demonstrate an imbalance, don't "tweet" it as gospel just because you have invested in an erroneous belief system, thanks. Too much pride & posturing going on here, not enough actual homework.

yer man... too much pride indeed... ofc we "duelists " dont care about the game, we just fight to keep our overpowered builds...

nonetheless, regarding this proposition there are too many assumptions and changes that dont go down well for me here.
for instance:


Soldiers, by far, dominate against duelers, and this simply doesn't make sense. Indeed, duelers are discouraged from dueling Soldiers because soldiers have the advantage of "Tactics" increase, which leaves duelers to be on the defensive against rampaging Soldiers.
2 facts here:
- tactics bonus is hardly a bonus, when you initiate a duel tactics are not used at all. as such you will not find many soldiers who actually use tactics.
lets face it: if you want to go out dueling, you dont stack tactics... as much as you dont stack FMS or swimming. soldiers therefore are not overpowered.
- the best and most prolific duelist of all times is an adventurer.
So a statement along the lines of "rampaging solders" or "soldiers, by far, dominate against duelers" is nonesense.

Or this quote:
Add to this, Soldiers have that nice HP bonus, making them tasty for melee builds.
this relates to the the soldiers overpowered and reinforces the fact that tactics arent a bonus:
1- You cannot put sps into both hp and tactics, so one of these bonuses is made redundant from the get go.
2 Hp bonus helps both melee and ranged builds at exactly the same ratio.
in fact ranged comes out on top considering they can put APs into dexterity covering 2 very important duel skills.
the only way a melee build can compete with a ranged dext build is to go down the full strength build and go resistance. but even then ranged comes out on top.
the other way for a melee to try and compete was to go down the power build, covering both tactics and appearance, but as said previously tactics are hardly ever used, and if they are they get totalled by a ranged dexterity build.

so 2 assuptions that i correct here:
-melee (whatever build) has always been in the shadows of the ranged dext builds. even more so now with the new update.
-tactics is by no means an overpowering bonus.

so my answer to the 3 proposals:

Duelers: Provide an additional bonus --- "In duels you receive a bonus of 50% to your appearance skill."
NO: This would be an overpowering bonus which would lead to the need for more change in the future.

Stance: Reduce the effectiveness of Stance by 25% to 50% (variable).
YES: as much as choosing the right side should help dodge, build and build complexity should be more important so as to bring diversity to the game.

Tactics/Appearance: Revert to version 1.32 the bonuses/benefits provided of Tactics/Appearance.
YES: it didnt need to be changed in the first place.

There is one thing here that is attempted to be rectified:
Soldiers being overpowered.
the problem being that people confuse dueling and fort fighting regarding this matter.
soldiers have an hp advantage in fort fights or a tactics advantage in duels, they cannot have both, as tactics is hardly ever used the soldier builds tendto be pure strength melee resist.
Maybe removing the tactics bonus and the hp bonus would level the playing field?
but then another bonus would be needed for soldiers.
maybe a dueling crit hit bonus to compete with the duelers ff crit hit bonus?
or vice versa, give soldiers the ff crit hits and give duelers a duel crit hit bonus...?
The other thing that needs to be rectified:
the ranged dexterity build duel SP advantage

so to ccl: NO to some of the suggestions in OP.
 
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DeletedUser16008

I don't have the time right now to do a detailed breakdown but.....

Rather than complicate things even more than required ( and i like a lot of the suggestions btw )it seems to me where you should start is reverting back to 1.32 and taking it from there and test properly.

Keep it simple so you can track what is working and what isnt instead of throwing lots of changes that confuses the results.

My opinion on all what was needed in the first place was this..

A tweak on resist as has been done ....

A tweak to aim/dodge as has been done.

Remove the soldier tactic bonus entirely its overpowered always was.

And thats all the tweaks it needed imo.

Revert the Charisma nerf back to 1.32, allow app to be useful once more along with tactics as it should be

Remove the changes to stance completely and revert to 1.32, yes if someone has dodge of 200+ and very high tactics you should have a horrible time trying to hit them rather than getting lucky by any means apart from a very small chance, just as before.

NO new bonus for the dueler as its not required when you remove tactics bonus on soldiers...... This is very important or youll create yet another Uber build.

Theres a very good reason for leaving the dueler class alone now its been made into the fort king.... the VERY LAST THING you want is to have dueler Charisma builds running around kicking the crap out of everyone AND owning in forts... your suggestion of helping the dueler build is cool but misguided. All that is required is nerf the tactics on a soldier then the other classes will also stand a chance in a duel too if specced correct and so they should.

In short there was a very good duel based system already and all that needed to be done was a minor change here and there and tested properly bit by bit.... dont make the same mistake again although its great to see there is now an acceptance the current position is as bad as some have been trying to tell Inno even before it happened.

One last thing and its probably the most important if Inno dont wish to lose lots of players on yet another dueling update.... having given everyone a free SP respec and the fact that massive amounts of players have spent in game cash, nuggets etc to move AP there needs to be a serious consideration from Inno that they will have probably ruined many duel orientated players builds the second you make these changes again... what is going to be done about that ?

I applaud the fact that the problem is noted and needs fixing asap...this time lets get it right , PM me if you wish to really test a solution before making it live, i'll gladly help out.
 
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DeletedUser9470

after thought i come to agree with vics suggestion of removing tactics bonus.
and ofc all the rest vic says

no to additional bonuses.

vic what about the dext build sp advantage?
 

DeletedUser16008

after thought i come to agree with vics suggestion of removing tactics bonus.
and ofc all the rest vic says

no to additional bonuses.

vic what about the dext build sp advantage?

One thing at a time i guess Neo ... maybe drop the aim effectiveness ? but then if affects others even more than shooters anyway... so... not easy to deal with.

Im hoping that a balance of skills will become more effective again ... such as app combined with aim and dodge again ... or tactics with dodge and aim will beat the mad dex aim dodgers if they have no app, as it should.

The only way to find out is do things step by step, the real problem is we dont know the formula for the current change compared to the original so its kinda like shooting in the dark ( forgive the pun )

Ive no doubt it will never be perfect but than the mess up comes from having aim and shoot on the same tree and thats a design fault so we have to live with that. They could have put aim and dodge on the same tree but not with shoot or vigor that was always going to casue an imbalance. Id have put aim dodge tactics and app all on the same tree along with swimming and repairing or hiding for various reasons and made all jobs and quests etc based on anything BUT that tree thereafter but thats a whole new argument...
 

DeletedUser

Removing features is a lot less likely to happen than adding features.

As to my earlier positions, I was mostly attempting to encourage you and the other whiners to present something concrete rather than all the crap whining you guys were putting forward. Some posters presented concrete information and I examined it, along with my own results, to find some patterns. -Neo-, step up, don't step on. If you can't do that, step out of the way because you have nothing to offer and are merely demonstrating that you're ready to quit the game but haven't broken your addiction.

Now, as I indicated, it is exceedingly unlikely that the tactics bonus will be removed. As well, based on your arguments and that of Elmyr's, there's really no point in doing so. Thus, attempting to make such a change would not merely kill this proposal but not truly address the issues. A high tactics plus high hps allows soldiers to be hit, take advantage of the info gained from such a hit (stance), and reciprocate in spades. Thus, they are excellent retributive duelers.

As to duelers in fort wars, that's being addressed in other proposals. I am focusing on duels, where "duelers" should excel, and they do not. A modification to appearance would seem a reasonable solution, but it seems I presented too high of a bonus. Thus, I presented an adjustment --- 20% as opposed to 50% bonus. I think that's reasonable, but it can be further discussed. As to addressing tactics, that's not going to happen, either in this proposal or by the developers, so you can just end that. I won't pose it as an option in this proposal, nor will the developers even consider it.
 
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DeletedUser16008

Dammit stop editing forcing me to edit :p
 
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DeletedUser16008

Removing features is a lot less likely to happen than adding features.

Now, as I indicated, it is exceedingly unlikely that the tactics bonus will be removed. As well, based on your arguments and that of Elmyr's, there's really no point in doing so. Thus, attempting to make such a change would not merely kill this proposal but not truly address the issues. A high tactics plus high hps allows soldiers to be hit, take advantage of the info gained from such a hit (stance), and reciprocate in spades. Thus, they are excellent retributive duelers.

As to duelers in fort wars, that's being addressed in other proposals. I am focusing on duels, where "duelers" should excel, and they do not. A modification to appearance would seem a reasonable solution, but it seems I presented too high of a bonus. Thus, I presented an adjustment --- 20% as opposed to 50% bonus. I think that's reasonable, but it can be further discussed. As to addressing tactics, that's not going to happen, either in this proposal or by the developers, so you can just end that. I won't pose it as an option in this proposal, nor will the developers even consider it.

OK lets stick with duelling then. Im trying to be constructive and make it the simplest and most fair solution and youve indicated that no way is that going to happen .... Hmmm so i give that most balanced, obvious and logical solution and its a resounding NO ... logic be damned .......ok ya got me now, im not used to playing this role of guess the company's intentions and priorities.

So what you wish me and others to do in essence is go away and come up with more development suggestions that is going to cause more work and time to implement before they even consider anything ? and the time-frame here is ? :huh:

Im probably being extremely thick here but for the life of me i cant see any logic in this unless Inno have other plans or roadmap we are unaware of.

I'll ponder it a bit but atm im kinda scratching my head and thinking meh why waste my time any longer ? nothing to do with you HS i just don't understand the pig headedness of your previous statement re what Inno will and wont even consider, let alone the time it will take to go through all the steps again. All reactionary and nothing pro active in it at all from what I can see. :unsure:
 
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DeletedUser

Okay, then let me clarify why I'm sure Inno won't consider removing soldier tactics as a means to make duelers more appealing:
  1. There are plenty of players already who play soldiers specifically because of such bonuses. Satisfying a few who play dueler, to piss off a buttload who play soldier, isn't going to work out well, politically or financially.
  2. Removing tactics has been brought to the table quite a few times in the past and soundly rejected not only by this community, but by Inno's developers. Going back and posing the exact same argument, expecting different results, is tantamount to being stupid.
  3. Removing tactics from soldiers still does nothing to make duelers more appealing for those who want to initiate duels.
 

DeletedUser16008

Okay, then let me clarify why I'm sure Inno won't consider removing soldier tactics as a means to make duelers more appealing:
  1. There are plenty of players already who play soldiers specifically because of such bonuses. Satisfying a few who play dueler, to piss off a buttload who play soldier, isn't going to work out well, politically or financially.
  2. Removing tactics has been brought to the table quite a few times in the past and soundly rejected not only by this community, but by Inno's developers. Going back and posing the exact same argument, expecting different results, is tantamount to being stupid.
  3. Removing tactics from soldiers still does nothing to make duelers more appealing for those who want to initiate duels.

Thanks for the clarification it does help but has from what I can see nothing to do at all with the current problem with duelling. What i still dont understand is this, in order to fix a problem we need to know what the objective is. I thought it was the overbalance with the current dueling skills not a particular class.

Forgive me if im not addressing duellers directly but I wasnt aware this was about them in the slightest, after 3 years or more only now Inno wish to help duelers ? I still think thats down to the fact they are big no1 choice for forts since they got criticals and Inno wish to make them even more a nugget maker.

Heres where i understand things are currently

1. The soldier Tactic bonus is highly overpowered but wont be taken off if Charisma gets rolled back, for the reasons youve stated, we all can agree on this as the result of a roll back right ? fair enough.

mmm ok so how does this relate to the dueler class when Workers and Adventurers are being totally ignored as wanting to also duel. Shouldnt this solution include them too ? Id say yes it should.

2. Why the sudden interest in duelers ? they have the ability of dueling on the spot I don't think they have a bum deal any less than other classes anymore... That withstanding there has to be a shake up of the duel skills yet we have to do this with tactics being overpowered staying on the cards... ummmm ok.

3. Aim and Dodge look to be staying as prime skills, fair enough but then everyone but tactics soldiers will still get raped. what we have to do is make other skills more strong again to rebalance dueling somehow.

I think the easiest thing for all is to make class bonuses non class and a choice for a player depending what he wishes to do in the game at say level 50 onwards. Once chosen they cannot be changed. That way all classes can be what they wish, forter, duelers questers etc and no one can complain as they make their own choice nothing is forced on them. But lets not get into that because thats never going to happen either sooo....

Lets keep it as simple as possible and to include every class in the solution if possible.Off the top of my head to make it best for all classes not just duelers but for everyone.

Solution.

Reinstate the tactics and app to what they were before the update but also add this.

Appearance gets increased by a % ( to be determined )for everyone to overcome the tactics on a soldier. Ok everyone else will pay that has tactics but at least soldiers wont be god any longer and enough dodge or aim may help anyway...Soldiers cant moan because they havnt been nerfed and others get a skill that combats tactics.

I know its a bit loose but im still trying to get my head round this suddenly being about duelers the class when I thought it was anything but.
 
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DeletedUser

I think the easiest thing for all is to make class bonuses non class and a choice for a player depending what he wishes to do in the game at say level 50 onwards. Once chosen they cannot be changed. That way all classes can be what they wish, forter, duelers questers etc and no one can complain as they make their own choice nothing is forced on them. But lets not get into that because thats never going to happen either sooo....
It's called higher class bonuses.....I really hope the devs are working on this and it'll completely balance the game....because when's the last time a proposal passed in this forum?

To address Elmyr, yes, that would be good.
 

DeletedUser

Hey guys, while I would like to spend the time to iron this out, I made a decision and have decided to hang up my forum guns to focus on my writing. If anyone wishes to take this over, by all means do so. Unless you're able to get a mod to adjust my original post, I would recommend creating a new proposal in a new thread.
 
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