Duelling Formula Feedback Thread

DeletedUser16008

Again, your mistake, like the mistake of so many others naysaying the scene here, is that you're not obtaining definitive tests and instead posing statistical claims without evidence and without consideration that PCs may (and mostly likely) have changed their stats. That is precisely why testing with NPCs gives good answers. Victor's fallacy-driven rant about testing with NPCs is without merit. In fact, it is without logic.

Opinions are aplenty, facts not so much. So, once again, I'm one man, non-staff, requesting definitive (and comparative) tests that demonstrate a problem. Let's have unbiased presentations and statistically accurate assessments.

Opinions are all there is according to you, since facts are going to be refuted and excuses given regardless of how many duels are posted .... there is no way to give facts and you know it.... You think 100 odd pages of duels is gonna say anything other than closed thread due to spam duels. ?

Mr stirr the pot and argue for arguments sake... :rolleyes:

If you think theres not much change to dueling .... ? !!!! well then sir go ahead and prove it :)
 

DeletedUser13388

DraGonFlyBG : What's your name on W10 & 11? On those I'm pure aim/dodge, would be good to test if our levels allow it.

I can tell you how resist works against aim/dodge after update......

They are level 120 and 119, after the update they went full resist reflex for some reason (hence my low hit for HP as I'm ranged), I hit them for 7 or 8 shots every duel, I have plenty more....
I really feel if you reskill to resist on W1 it will be a pointless exercise.

On w10 and w11 i am with name : Metallurg .

I am lamost sure that you have atacked me rescently there, will check the reports and will tell you.And ya, lets arrange some duels there.

Still i will reskill in resist, wanna check it by my own .

P.S.:

Nahh, you havent attacked me on w10 and w11, it was w13, my bad.
 
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DeletedUser20647

Ive been using the charlatan set with a mixed skill setup (resistance, charisma, dex, mobilty, with some aim and dodge) and thanks to this update it seems to work! :p

But thats on a level 51 and 0 motiv, guess its different for higher levels.
 

DeletedUser9470

for me i think you have forgotten about the times when ranged was so overpowered it got nerfed, can you remember?
this new update completely forgot about the issues and reasons why ranged was nerfed back then. either that or it is deliberate? after all getting duelers to respec all the time is good money?
 

DeletedUser

On w10 and w11 i am with name : Metallurg .

I am lamost sure that you have atacked me rescently there, will check the reports and will tell you.And ya, lets arrange some duels there.

Still i will reskill in resist, wanna check it by my own .

P.S.:

Nahh, you havent attacked me on w10 and w11, it was w13, my bad.

Yes w13, you creamed me, although I am 17 levels behind you, if you don't mind asking what build are you there? I'm full dodge/aim/strength on that one and I am having a bit of trouble against ranged.

Can't duel on W11, levels wrong, I'll give you a go on W10 though.
 
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DeletedUser

for me i think you have forgotten about the times when ranged was so overpowered it got nerfed, can you remember?
this new update completely forgot about the issues and reasons why ranged was nerfed back then. either that or it is deliberate? after all getting duelers to respec all the time is good money?
Umm, -Neo- when was that? As far back as I can remember (and that's about as long as the game has been live), ranged was not modified to any degree. It was, in fact, melee-resist builds that showed resist needed to be nerfed, and so it was. Ranged was the favorite, it was even my favorite at the onset. But, then one day, i got tagged by a recent discovery --- the melee-resist build --- and from there people started experimenting with resist builds. After that, melee-resist was so brutal in domination, inno nerfed it. But still, ranged was just barely better in the smackdown than most melee-resist builds (one melee-resist build still kicked ranged reasonably well). Still, resist was popular because you could go on forever without running out of hps, and thus pile up the duels (as you recall in our ol' w10 fun). As forts came into the picture, it became obvious in time that hps were the way to go, and so melee-resist (strength) builds had three things going for it, while shooting had only one thing going for it.

Now, you could be referring to dodge, and in that I may very well agree. At the onset, dodge was a bit out of control, but they fixed that shortly after live if I recall, so it's really not a reasonable argument.

Anyway, you're still posing op-eds (and incorrect ones at that), not really putting facts on the table.
 

DeletedUser9470

Is there a list of all the updates anywhere? i swear ranged dueling has been nerfed in the past.

I have a few questions that I have longed for answers for, for along time, yet, for some odd reason, no mod or dev wants to answer them:
1 why was the duel system modified in the first place? if there arent any problems then dont fix it.
2 why werent any duelers consulted about the duel system?
3 why dont devs and mods listen to duelists about the duel system?

Why are these very reasonable questions completely ignored?

Requests were made a long time ago, with a lot of testing and proofing.
Duels like this one:
9319748_d3d2_625x625.jpg
that took place on 08.08.11.

This duel before the update quite clearly shows dexterity dodge build as being overpowered.
Yes that was me showing over 200 premium tactics that were apparently so overpowered!
Yes overpowered tactics dev definition must be that tactics dont do anything whatsoever.

Quite clearly tactics before the update were not overpowered, quite clearly before the update dext dodge build was ALREADY overpowered.
This was pointed out many times but devs and mods turn the deaf ear! why???

Even better example of how devs base their facts on complete BS just like politicians meeting agendas:
9344450_8142_625x625.jpg


Victor Kruger, a premium tactics duelist, just after the update!
Yer right! tactics was overpowered and dext shoot was underpowered at the time! of course! its me Im seeing things that dont exist!

Us duelers have incessantly pointed out these flaws, and devs/mods have always ignored them, which only leads to the fact that devs and mods are running a different agenda to what they are saying, presenting their ideas by covering up the real reasons, and asking for "facts" to prove they are wrong regardless of public opinion.
and when they are given facts, they just ignore.

So what is the point of this thread HS?
get some glorification from noobs who havent got a clue about dueling? or is it to actually listen to what duelers have to say?



Repeatedly we have pointed out flaws, repeatedly we have given facts and repeatedly we have been ignored completely.

lets get the truth for a change.
what is innos real agenda?
it is obvious that they want to get rid of dueling.
 
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DeletedUser

Neo you've only whined up will now. You haven't shown any actual proof that ranged is OPd. I've been playing in various worlds for the past 3 years. I've always been ranged and I know all the updates that passed and ranged was never nerfed. You say ranged duelers are favorites due to aim yet before the update aim was in dire need of a buff and more than that melee duelers had access to a large variety of jobs. Plus like hell also pointed out the HP you get from str(and the solider bonus if you went with that class) it was almost impossible to KO a melee dueler(and specially solider)... Also all you're showing in kruger's duel is someone who had more appearance than his tactics and who most likely used buffs. unles you can actually provide with numbers all you're doing is speculating
 

DeletedUser16008

Neo you've only whined up will now. You haven't shown any actual proof that ranged is OPd. I've been playing in various worlds for the past 3 years. I've always been ranged and I know all the updates that passed and ranged was never nerfed. You say ranged duelers are favorites due to aim yet before the update aim was in dire need of a buff and more than that melee duelers had access to a large variety of jobs. Plus like hell also pointed out the HP you get from str(and the solider bonus if you went with that class) it was almost impossible to KO a melee dueler(and specially solider)... Also all you're showing in kruger's duel is someone who had more appearance than his tactics and who most likely used buffs. unles you can actually provide with numbers all you're doing is speculating

Actually death your wrong King had dueled me daily for nearly a week for a bounty but had yet to hit me more than 3 times in a duel or win ... we chatted and every day hed go for it again ... his app was not even close to my tactics let alone the bonus on prem... at the time I was about 200 tactics before soldier prem bonus to his 150 app but then again 250k is a high bounty so he kept trying... we were both shocked because it was the day after the update of 1.32 and yea thats the result ... he couldnt believe it anymore than i could at the time... previous it wasnt even close.
 

DeletedUser9470

10907848_5c5c_625x625.jpg

my stats:
10907881_4790_625x625.jpg

if i transpose all of my sps to a dex dodge build i get:
220 aim, 220 dodge and 111 shoot
plus clothes:
262 aim, 286 dodge and 148 shoot

if rackattack hasnt got this build and is weaker and still caning me then what wouldit be like if he was full on like this?

>MORE than overpowered.
 

DeletedUser

Actually death your wrong King had dueled me daily for nearly a week for a bounty but had yet to hit me more than 3 times in a duel or win ... we chatted and every day hed go for it again ... his app was not even close to my tactics let alone the bonus on prem... at the time I was about 200 tactics before soldier prem bonus to his 150 app but then again 250k is a high bounty so he kept trying... we were both shocked because it was the day after the update of 1.32 and yea thats the result ... he couldnt believe it anymore than i could at the time... previous it wasnt even close.


In that case the only explication I can come up with is what hell said in an earlier post. Right after the update dodging and aiming were a bit OPd but it has already been fixed.

No hit

No hit No hit

No hit No hit

Strike: Left arm
- 38 HP No hit

Strike: Right arm
- 38 HP No hit

No hit No hit

Strike: Left shoulder
- 41 HP Strike: Left shoulder
- 247 HP

Strike: Left arm
- 31 HP No hit

Strike: Right arm
- 39 HP Total health points
- 247 HP

Total health points
- 187 HP Felines wins the duel and gains 499 experience points. Deathwing did not carry any cash and Felines walks away without taking any money.


Yesterday the guy re-skilled. According to the ranking panel he now has 200 reflex and I had 190 shooting.

No hit

Strike: Right shoulder
- 67 HP No hit

No hit No hit

Strike: Left arm
- 67 HP No hit

Strike: Right arm
- 61 HP No hit

No hit Strike: Right shoulder
- 250 HP

Strike: Left shoulder
- 66 HP No hit

Strike: Left arm
- 80 HP No hit

Strike: Right arm
- 60 HP Total health points
- 250 HP

Total health points
- 401 HP Deathwing wins the duel, gains 288 experience points and steals $688 from Felines.


He has 200 reflex and I had 230ish shooting. Point I am making is yes, reflex isn't as strong as it used to be but if my shooting is smaller than the defending player's reflex I still lose.
All I see is a bit more balance. Before with the 20% aim guarantee(or what ever the percentage was) was players afforded 300+ reflex and had no need for aim. Now it takes more thought to make a proper build. And duelers have to sacrifice certain jobs to stay in the game. And to get from 30 to 80dmg on a res dueler before i needed at least a 50 sp in shooting over the opponents reflex.
 
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DeletedUser16008

Death your problem will be your not taking the guys toughness into the equation... points there will indeed add to his resist... even if hes got about 20 or so from kit that will still add to his total resist.

30 points over the resisters total COMBINED resist will afford you full damage ability, less will diminish it. 50 was never required other than playing it safe.
 

DeletedUser

True. I did forget to factor in toughness because the guy in question here is a ranged dueler but he might have some toughness from clothing maybe. I'll have to check that out again.
 

DeletedUser9470

True. I did forget to factor in toughness because the guy in question here is a ranged dueler but he might have some toughness from clothing maybe. I'll have to check that out again.
the difference between noob duelists who "know" everything, and pro duelists who know everything...
as none of us pro duelists were consulted for the changes, i wonder who they actually consulted?
LOL
 
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DeletedUser

Oh great and wise neo... what would we do without you... a pro duelist with 0% motivation? don't make me laugh. at least i can admit when i make a mistake. As for who the developers actually consult i'm curious myself. clearly soldiers have always had an advantage in dueling over all other classes and duelers are just a collection of mostly useless class "perks". and melee resistance duelers were almost impossible to KO
 

DeletedUser

Oh great and wise neo... what would we do without you... a pro duelist with 0% motivation? don't make me laugh. at least i can admit when i make a mistake. As for who the developers actually consult i'm curious myself. clearly soldiers have always had an advantage in dueling over all other classes and duelers are just a collection of mostly useless class "perks". and melee resistance duelers were almost impossible to KO

But fairly simple to beat and extremely easy to beat now.
 

DeletedUser14793

Oh great and wise neo... what would we do without you... a pro duelist with 0% motivation? don't make me laugh. at least i can admit when i make a mistake. As for who the developers actually consult i'm curious myself. clearly soldiers have always had an advantage in dueling over all other classes and duelers are just a collection of mostly useless class "perks". and melee resistance duelers were almost impossible to KO

Resist was easy to KO, you just needed to know how to duel. See the thing is with this discussion is that its non-duelers and wannabe duelers arguing with actual duelers, nothing will ever get resolved and so im not even gonna waste my breath anymore. And i love how ppl think 0% isnt real dueling lol, ive done both and there is far more skill amongst the 0%'ers then there is among the exp duelers.

P.S- (Deathwing) I was a builder (worker class) switched to 0%er on W10 and then switched to exp dueler and had no problem beating duelers with the soldier class, why dont you stop blaming classes and maybe look are your skills as a dueler first??
 

DeletedUser13388

Oh great and wise neo... what would we do without you... a pro duelist with 0% motivation? don't make me laugh. at least i can admit when i make a mistake. As for who the developers actually consult i'm curious myself. clearly soldiers have always had an advantage in dueling over all other classes and duelers are just a collection of mostly useless class "perks". and melee resistance duelers were almost impossible to KO

It has always been easy to KO resistance duelers.The problem is that if you skill yourself as resistance killer, then you will suck vs most of the power duelers.But since 3/5 of all the duelers were resistance, it was worth it to skill yourself as resistance killer.

The best option in my opininon was, to skill yourself between resistance killer and power dueler, especially when the buffs came out.
 

DeletedUser16008

awww come on guys it has never been easy to KO resistance duelers due to thier usually large amounts of HP in fact I had a resist toon and before the goldens came out it used to take a gang rape of about 5 or so duels of resist killers to put me down when offline... even now with goldens itll often take 3 duels to take one down to ko.

However they were and are easy to beat no dispute about that.

The problem with the complaining of resist duelers is that normal or below average duelers/toons will still hit a resist a lot ... leading to the belief that they should stand a chance, whereas the pure shooter or app dueler etc would'nt even get hit creating the illusion that they are way better so get away with comments. The poor resist getting hit so much just upsets the victim, him thinking that they should do more damage and therefore win...

Well heres the thing about resist thats all part of what you give up. The point is all about reduced damage not dodge etc...We are seeing a lot of those same players reskilling to dodge etc and are often proving they are indeed superior duelers anyway.

Same with the 0 motive duelers, common belief is they cant hold their own vs "real" duelers"... whilst its true they dont expose themselves to over powered opponents it shouldnt be confused with lack of ability.

Just thought id throw that in because it may seem sometimes I dont like either build when in fact ive been both most successfully but like anything they have their limitations and lose thier appeal after a while. That does not mean I don't rate these players very highly because I do & from personal xp know exactly what goes into making them notorious and very successful duelers.

Never had a problem being a resist killer and vulnerable to other builds as melee for a long time, although I went from resist to my next world being resist killer with the simplest build to beat resist whilst having the most effective build vs everything else too.

Changes with various updates did mean resist got better and better for landing hits with very little aim so they just pushed resist higher, that lead to problems for the extreme resist killer who would often have to go to 400 or so shoot or vigor to still destroy them or even a kit of basic aim would let resist hit 1 or 2 times thereby winning the duel making them vulnerable more as DF says to other power builds.

Resist has gone through various guises from being nerfed to getting 0 damage when hit.

So many updates have over the years included tweaks or tests in duel formulas, some were reported as happening others, called bugs or denied totally, even Moderators are unaware sometimes im sure.. all kinds of things can impact results and they will never be noticed by the majority, except for the very active duelers who build a picture very quickly and are overly sensitive to small changes by the sheer volume of dueling they do.

Sure its harder to be certain since the whole game just got a free respec but still the very actives that build up a bigger picture and shouldn't be dismissed as pure ramblings.

BTW fort tanks are ridiculous to take down now dodge is more useful .... you wont get 8 head shots in very often now even with 400 aim and they are worse than resist ever were to take out.
 

DeletedUser22575

dueling now comes down to two things.

1. Dueler versus non dueler...dueler wins.

2. Dueler versus dueler...flip a coin..depends on settings..build essentially the same for both.

why bother..not much of a challenge anymore.
 
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