Full body scans / full body pat downs whats your take ?

[DeletedUser]

I do live far from my family. I am from Europe and live in the US. My husband's sisters and parents live in different states. They are at such distance that it is not worth it to drive. We do fly to visit them and there are the occasional business trips. And still, this whole year I went through 1 scanner.
And going through 2 airports does not mean going through more scanners. I see you do not travel by plane much. There are very few occasions when you have connecting flights and have to go through security again. Most of them (domestic flights) do not require you to go out, unless you chose to go out to have a smoke. When you get off the plane you are already at the gates, you can just go straight to the gate you need to be for the next flight. There are fast foods and restrooms, so you do not need to go out of the gate area unless (I repeat) you are a smoker. The few flights that require you to go through security again are when you come from a different country and you have to have your luggage checked.
And I don't know anybody visiting family as often as you put in your example. Flights are not that cheap. Plus, if you live somewhere far, you are not all alone, or you would move closer to your loved ones. You have friends and possibly family (or just GF/BF). If I visit for thanksgiving, then I won't visit from xmas. The usual family get together is 1/year unless something unpredictable happens.
And as well as you can visit them, they can visit you.
In your example you exaggerate. I do not know anybody traveling as much on a regular basis. Well, to be honest I do, but has his own private plane and doesn't go through scanners.

 

[DeletedUser]

I do live far from my family. I am from Europe and live in the US. My husband's sisters and parents live in different states. They are at such distance that it is not worth it to drive. We do fly to visit them and there are the occasional business trips. And still, this whole year I went through 1 scanner.
And going through 2 airports does not mean going through more scanners. I see you do not travel by plane much. There are very few occasions when you have connecting flights and have to go through security again. Most of them (domestic flights) do not require you to go out, unless you chose to go out to have a smoke. When you get off the plane you are already at the gates, you can just go straight to the gate you need to be for the next flight. There are fast foods and restrooms, so you do not need to go out of the gate area unless (I repeat) you are a smoker. The few flights that require you to go through security again are when you come from a different country and you have to have your luggage checked.
And I don't know anybody visiting family as often as you put in your example. Flights are not that cheap. Plus, if you live somewhere far, you are not all alone, or you would move closer to your loved ones. You have friends and possibly family (or just GF/BF). If I visit for thanksgiving, then I won't visit from xmas. The usual family get together is 1/year unless something unpredictable happens.
And as well as you can visit them, they can visit you.
In your example you exaggerate. I do not know anybody traveling as much on a regular basis. Well, to be honest I do, but has his own private plane and doesn't go through scanners.

I don't know about that one (I know this is a one time deal and doesn't happen at all airports) when I was in Reagan National Airport, in DC, as my connector and I had to leave security and re-enter to get to the next concourse (long hallway) of course this was when we didn't know that there was a tram that goes between them. but looking at that map you would never know. (I got off somewhere between 35-45 and had to get to 23-34)

 

[DeletedUser]

one thing to rember is that radiation exposure is cululative

it doesnt disapate your body keeps collecting it and building it up all your life

 

[DeletedUser]

I don't know about that one (I know this is a one time deal and doesn't happen at all airports) when I was in Reagan National Airport, in DC, as my connector and I had to leave security and re-enter to get to the next concourse (long hallway) of course this was when we didn't know that there was a tram that goes between them. but looking at that map you would never know. (I got off somewhere between 35-45 and had to get to 23-34)

You're right, it happens on the big big airports. That is not a regular experience. Most airports I've been on are small enough to get on foot from gate to gate.

one thing to rember is that radiation exposure is cululative

it doesnt disapate your body keeps collecting it and building it up all your life

Exactly. And as I said before, the exposure is greater when you get a medical x-ray done. We still do it because we have to. On the airport, you don't have to. A pat down can get you through. You don't get patted down by a person of opposite gender. I don't see why such a big fuss.

LE: I just read right now in the Health magazine a statement made by Kimberly Applegate, MD (Vice Chair for quality and safety in the Department of Radiology at Emory University School of Medicine): "It would take 1000 trips through the backscatter to reach the equivalent radiation of the chest x-ray"

 

[DeletedUser]

Yes, I do not travel much on planes. The last time I did was around 2 or 3 years ago. My example was crude, and I merely wanted to point out that some people do travel much, not just for holidays. Some people may have two or three buisness trips throughout the year for instance.

Anyway, let me talk about your quote from Mrs. Applegate. What my source said was this:

Unlike a medical X-ray, the TSA X-ray machines are a sci-fi fan's dream: they are lower-energy beams that can only penetrate clothing and the topmost layers of skin. This provides TSA agents with a view that would expose any explosives concealed by clothing. But according to the UCSF professors, the low-energy rays do a "Compton scatter" off tissue layers just under the skin, rather than the bone, possibly exposing some vital areas and leaving the tissues at risk of mutation.

When an X-ray Compton scatters, it doesn't shift an electron to a higher energy level; instead, it hits the electron hard enough to dislodge it from its atom. The authors note that this process is "likely breaking bonds," which could cause mutations in cells and raise the risk of cancer.

Because the X-rays only make it just under the skin's surface, the total volume of tissue responsible for absorbing the radiation is fairly small. The professors point out that many body parts that are particularly susceptible to cancer are just under the surface, such as breast tissue and testicles. They are also concerned with those over 65, as well as children, being exposed to the X-rays.

The professors pointed to a number of other issues, including the possibility that TSA agents may scan certain areas more slowly (for example, the groin, to prevent another "underwear bomber" incident like the one in December 2009), exposing that area to even more radiation. But the letter never explicitly accuses the machines of being dangerous; rather, the professors encourage Dr. Holdren to pursue testing to make sure that the casual use of these X-rays is safe.

Mrs. Applegate is right, it doesn't give as much radiation as a medical scanner. The problem is that it is different than one, by dislodging electrons and possibly creating mutations that can cause cancer.

As for you saying why patdowns are such a big fuss, I would guess it depends mostly on two large contributing factors.

1. The handler

I would guess that you would rather be patted down by a mature, experienced, and polite patter than a lazy, inconsitirate, rude, and inexperienced patter

2. The traveler

Some people are just more sensative than others. Maybe they don't want their "junk" patted down by a complete stranger. Others may just want to get it done for and travel to NYC and eat fried turkey, and don't give a care what happens.

Just my take on the patdowns.

 

[DeletedUser]

The only time I ever considered an airport security guard as rude was when I entered US territory in Philadelphia. But that was his job to search my luggage, ask me why I am there several times to see if I change my story and so on (had a visit visa). I do understand why he seemed rough on me.
The rest of them that I met, even though they deal with humongous numbers of people daily, were nice and polite, some of them smiling and being friendly.
When I went through the scanner I was nicely explained what it is and what it is for. Have been instructed in a nice tone what to do and the lady smiled and wished me a safe flight after the scan was done.
What I am trying to say is that most often you would be patted down by a mature, experienced and polite patter. They are not police officers and you are not a suspect.

As for the sensitive people: God forbid they need a custom made suit and need to be measured by a tailor.

 

[DeletedUser]

.

As for the sensitive people: God forbid they need a custom made suit and need to be measured by a tailor.

a taylors not gonna grab your crotch or massage your boobs

 

[DeletedUser25632]

I think we can safely say, nobody wants to see a so-called photoshop inverted version of this.

If that's seriously what the scanned pictures looks like, who the hell cares if they scan you like that? I thought it was much more detailed... I'd take that scan over a pat down that will delay flights any day....

 

[DeletedUser]

a taylors not gonna grab your crotch or massage your boobs

My mom is a tailor, she cannot measure without accidentally touching some private areas. For example: a shirt needs over boob measurement and pants need measurement of the leg from the crotch to ankle or lower, depending on how long you want them. To hold the tape at the crotch area, she non-willingly touches it. A tailor's measuring tape differs from a carpenter's tape. It needs to be held from the end. (here's a pic: http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thu...to_5614446-tailor-measuring-tape-isolated.jpg)
But we are not here to discuss how a tailor may accidentally touch your privates. I was making a point and that was: there are moments in life when you will have to deal with it, not just the pat down at the airport. So for the sensitives out there: grow up!

 

[DeletedUser]

If that's seriously what the scanned pictures looks like, who the hell cares if they scan you like that? I thought it was much more detailed... I'd take that scan over a pat down that will delay flights any day....

thats a milimeter wave scan NOT a backscatter xray

 

[DeletedUser]

I'm sure that also goes for all of the young kids being taught that it's ok for a stranger to touch them anywhere they want to as long as they're wearing a uniform or say it's for their safety. The way they did the pat downs in the past wasn't bad, but I've heard that it's become much more intrusive these days. I haven't been on a plane in 30+ years and don't expect to be on one in the future, but I can understand some of the concerns people have about it.

 

[DeletedUser]

My mom is a tailor, she cannot measure without accidentally touching some private areas. For example: a shirt needs over boob measurement and pants need measurement of the leg from the crotch to ankle or lower, depending on how long you want them. To hold the tape at the crotch area, she non-willingly touches it. A tailor's measuring tape differs from a carpenter's tape. It needs to be held from the end. (here's a pic: http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thu...to_5614446-tailor-measuring-tape-isolated.jpg)
But we are not here to discuss how a tailor may accidentally touch your privates. I was making a point and that was: there are moments in life when you will have to deal with it, not just the pat down at the airport. So for the sensitives out there: grow up!

an accident brushing agianst or even pressing a measuring tape agiasnt is not the same as cuppin witht he hands and massaging

 

[DeletedUser22575]

an accident brushing agianst or even pressing a measuring tape agiasnt is not the same as cuppin witht he hands and massaging

Well, you can always either take the scan.

or take the grope

or take the bus

or take the train

or drive.

 

[DeletedUser]

Well, you can always either take the scan.

or take the grope

or take the bus

or take the train

or drive.

OR we can TAKE back our rights like the florida airport that has decided to OPT out ... of TSA

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/11/19/private.airport.screening/index.html?section=cnn_latest

 

[DeletedUser]

A pat down does not equate to a game of grab-ass.

That is unless you americans have a habit of grabbing balls, squeezing ass, and massaging tits during said pat down.

I've been subject to pat downs in several airports in europe during the last few years, and whilst they vary in thoroughness
I have never once felt violated. Pissed off? Yes, but that is because I seem to have been picked out at random too often
for it to be pure chance. Changing into a more business-like attire has changed this.

It's close to 10 years since I learned how to pat down a person, and part of the pat down is to check the privates.
If you don't then what's the point? Seriously. Why even check for weaopns if you are not going to be thorough?

If things have indeed gone to far then you, the american public, are to blame for allowing yourself to be carried forth
on that wave of hysteria that has plagued your nation.

 

[DeletedUser22575]

OR we can TAKE back our rights like the florida airport that has decided to OPT out ... of TSA

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/11/19/private.airport.screening/index.html?section=cnn_latest

First off the private airport screening corporations have to follow the same rules as TSA employees do. No change in the pat down/scanner requirements. They are just a little more customer sensitive than TSA employees.

AS a side note I find it interesting that the Republicans are using this as push to privatize the TSA lead by Rep Mica, who surprise surprise receives contributions from the private companies. Mica is poised to become chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee.

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/rep-john-mica-pushes-tsa-privatization

Second, you have NO right to fly just like if you go out to eat at a restaurant that clearly states "no shirt no shoes no service", you can't eat there without them, or if you go to ride Greyhound and refuse to follow their rules.

Third you might want to remember how the TSA was created, by which administration along with the Patriot Act. So you want to talk about "taking back your rights" think of the Shrub and Ashcroft.

But then I forgot..you are selective about which "rights" are taken and who they are taken from. Take them from those you don't like, thats fine and if a judge disagrees with you they are an "activist judge". But if they touch your rights they are wrong, and if a judge agrees with them, guess what..another "activist judge".

So Sad, To Bad. Learn to live with the "security measures" just like everyone else has...you know. Rendition, water boarding, wire taps, library data bases on who reads what, etc, et, etc.

 

[DeletedUser]

OR we can TAKE back our rights like the florida airport that has decided to OPT out ... of TSA

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/11/19/private.airport.screening/index.html?section=cnn_latest

Our rights? Right to what? Allow more and more terrorists to kill innocent people?
Seriously! Do you even fly often? Did you get scanned or patted down? Did you go through the experience to know what you are talking about, or are you basing your arguments on internet lies and rant? Cause obviously there are a lot of negative articles, but also positive ones. Take time to read both sides, not just one! And even though I did not lose anybody in any terrorist attack, I do remember the events and strongly believe that we NEED to do something to STOP them from now on!
So would you rather be patted down/scanned or have a suicide bomber on the plane with you? Changes your perspective, doesn't it. I much rather be safe than sorry.

 

[DeletedUser]

I just came across this video that was interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvpvmLp5Ops&feature=sub

 

[DeletedUser]

@ john were talking abou the new enhanced patdowns they give if u opt out of the nude scanner where they dont use the back of hte hand they use teh palms and they feel all your private arias including the groin and the breasts of women

@ tj and dud

its called our right to personal decency our right to not have nude body scans vviolating our privacy our right not to have our sexual organas groped but some 9 dollar an hour goverment stooge who thinks its fun to humiliate people ( yes theres already been dozens and dozens of reports of abuse many from tsa employees that have quit because they couldnt stand the actions of there fellow workers and most importantly our 4th amendement RIGHTS

and TJ no the airports are NOT required to use the scanners or the enhanced patdowns tsa is pushing them but its NOT a feederal requirement and many airports dont even have them now


the scanners were pushed through after the hole underwear bomber except funny thing is these scanners WOULDNT have caught him lol




EDIT: had to say gizmos video says it ALL

 

[DeletedUser22575]

@ john were talking abou the new enhanced patdowns they give if u opt out of the nude scanner where they dont use the back of hte hand they use teh palms and they feel all your private arias including the groin and the breasts of women

@ tj and dud

its called our right to personal decency our right to not have nude body scans vviolating our privacy our right not to have our sexual organas groped but some 9 dollar an hour goverment stooge who thinks its fun to humiliate people ( yes theres already been dozens and dozens of reports of abuse many from tsa employees that have quit because they couldnt stand the actions of there fellow workers and most importantly our 4th amendement RIGHTS

and TJ no the airports are NOT required to use the scanners or the enhanced patdowns tsa is pushing them but its NOT a feederal requirement and many airports dont even have them now


the scanners were pushed through after the hole underwear bomber except funny thing is these scanners WOULDNT have caught him lol




EDIT: had to say gizmos video says it ALL

The way you protect your privacy and your "rights" in this case is to not fly. If you want to fly you consent to waiving those rights. Or you don't get on the plane.

http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0803/080803cd1.htm

"Indeed, the private companies involved in the pilot program work under TSA supervision and hire personnel using the same guidelines TSA uses for its own screeners. TSA also trains the company's screeners."

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/11/19/private.airport.screening/index.html

"Participating airports work with TSA to hire an approved security contractor and must follow TSA security guidelines when screening passengers and baggage, according to the TSA website."

Anything else about what private has to do and whose directions they follow on how they do it?