Guarding the town

This popped up in a discussion as a counter proposal, and I thought it was a good idea, and wrote a reply about it in that thread. That said, I think this desverves a thread of it's own, so we can further investigate and discuss this opportunity.

The opportunity I am talking about is for a new job to be available around town; namely guarding it. This would be the stereotypical soldier job.

As for the incentive; builders got xp for building, although you could say "working for the greater good should be reward enough". Higher duel lvl means you are defending against tougher opponents = more xp/cash.

Obviously this would be queued just like any other job, and would require certain skills; Tactics, riding, shooting, or something. Whatever would work well with patrol and defense.

The risk rating would be an undefined variable, since this would entirely rely on whom visits town. The guarding soldier would be able to intercept incoming duelers, and thus protecting workers from getting preyed upon.

There should in no way EVER be a 100% chance of blocking incomings though, as this would be an effective duel block, but depending on skills used for the job, and the amount of labour points, the chances of blocking ought to increase. This said, simply blocking wouldn't do much good for a min/maxed "town blocker", since he must also be able to win and survive the attacker, to fend him off.

Question then would be; how many duels should he be able to block in say each 10/30/60/120 min period? Too many, and he dies. Tough luck some would say, and in a way, I agree to that.

If I missed anything here, or you have any interresting feedback, please join in on the discussion.

What happened if he guards the town but there is no one come to duel them? Does exp should be given?

How does the interception occurs? Is it the dueller have to duel the guard first before duel the other members of town or it just chase away any duellers?

If he doesnt survive, the dueller have to queue another duel?

What if the guards level is not in the duelling range? The duellers can pass through the guards or what?
Does a town in the old west have guards? AFAIK, they have sheriffs, not guards.

Christ... browser crashed when I attemtped to respond... here we go again.

1. What happened if he guards the town but there is no one come to duel them?

As for the incentive; builders got xp for building, although you could say "working for the greater good should be reward enough". Higher duel lvl means you are defending against tougher opponents = more xp/cash.

Click to expand...

What I attempted to say here is that the guard should get an incentive for protecting the town, just as the builder gets a reward for putting up those buildings. This reward should niether be too great, nor too low.


2. How does the interception occurs?
Didn't I explain that? Guess not.
Whilst on guard, the player has X percentage chance of intercepting any attacker. This percentage should never in any way be higher than, say 90%(?) no matter how many excess labour points you have.
Upon interception the guard will stop the dueler from dueling the intended target by taking its place. Thus this becomes a high-risk job, where you might get yourself KO'ed if your luck and skill does not prove true. This is not ment to be a shield of invulnerability against duelers, just a way for towns to look out for their own if they want to dedicate time doing that.


3. Is it the dueller have to duel the guard first before duel the other members of town or it just chase away any duellers?

Well, if the dueler is indeed intercepted, wich there is no guarantee willl happen, then the guard will take the place of the intended target defending him against teh attacker. Tough luck one could say, but the worker may not be as lucky the next time around if the dueler has another go, or the guard might get knocked out. (tough luck for the guard). Either way, we can not give duelers two duels for the cost of one, if he was to KO the guard, he should not get the original attempted duel for free.

To furhter balance this, one could say that guards that are hurt will have less chance to intercept based on their % of max hp remaining. Thus after one encounter with the guard, it will be less likely to meet him again next turn, unless you specifically call him out. (standard duel challenge)


4. If he doesnt survive, the dueller have to queue another duel?
That was adressed above.


5. What if the guards level is not in the duelling range?
Standard duel rules apply. Otherwise we'd be looking at way too much new code and clutter. Besides the restrictions based on duel levels are there for a reason.


6. The duellers can pass through the guards or what?
Pretty much, yes. If you want justification, you could say that the guard with the higher level didn't notice him, due to the dueler coming into town not beeing famous enough. On the other side, the dueler could be so infamous that the guard does not DARE intercept, in case of too high duel level.


7. Does a town in the old west have guards? AFAIK, they have sheriffs, not guards.
That is nit-picking. If you want to call them deputies, and have them appointed by the sheriff, that is fine by me, IE restricting guard/patrol duty to those appointed by the sheriff (when and if he comes). It would be a change in name, but the purpose of the job, the mechanics of the job, and the concept of the job would be the same.

Don't bring in realism to the discusssion, nor historical accuracy. These towns all look the same, have no drinking, no gambling, no prostitution, etc. The discussion about realism and historical accuracy does not affect this discussion. This is about placing a mechanic into the game that allows a town to look after it's own, but not stop duels from happening altogheter. (why would we want that?) There should always be some risk, for everyone involved

Normal "dueling" level restrictions are in place , if the "guard" is level thirty (30) and a level twenty (20) "dueler" walks past him , no intervention . If the "guard" is defeated the "Dueler" then attacks his target with out paying more energy . You que up a "duel" , there is a player doing the "Guard Town" job , the guard is with in Your dueling level range , the chance for interception is positive , The guard "Duels" You . If You win , You proceeded to Your selected target , fighting two "Duels" for the cost of one . If You lose You are prevented from attacking You intended target foe one hour .
I would like to see the chance of interception equal to the excess labor points for the job , i.e. job difficulty seventy five (75) , "guard" has one hundred (100) labor point there is a twenty five percent (25%) chance of interception .
As to how often a "guard" could intercept in coming "Duelers" , I would suggest that if the guard is not involved in a "Duel" he is available , meaning three (3) "duels" per thirty minutes . That would probably never happen , if no one attacked while he was preforming the job he would have no "duels" .

Sorry , Mr. Rose . You responded while I way slowly typing . You and I seem in agreement .

The suggested modifications by Oakey Jones sounds pretty solid, with one modification.

I would like to see the "guard" job having a flat percentage to intercept in ADDITION to the excess labour points, with an upper maximum, that way you get say, 10% as a flat standard of the job, the have the top maximum be for instance 80% (intecepting 4 out of 5 duels, are pretty decent guard odds, for a good guard)

I'm not too sure about giving two duels for the cost of one, as I see a way this can be exploited, by the "power-level" technique some low-lifes use. (IE a high lvl duels a low lvl naked, thus assuring victory to the defender at no cost to the defender).
For the sake of argument, we could have a "guard" do his job naked, thus a free target (this would be a at a risk if a "real" challenger appears). For the sake of those powerlevling, I do not think giving two duels for the cost of one is feasable.

That said, any dueler whom defeats a guard, could get a produce item of sorts, a deputy badge, or whatever. (something non-complicated, both in code and in essence). Call it a token. This token could then be sold for some cash, perhaps have the value increase with the duel level of the defender. This to ensure that guards do not soak up all duels, and that in the case of an intercept, the dueler does not walk away emptyhanded when winning.

I hope this isn't complicating matters too much though, but I do want this to be fair for both parties in the terms of risk and reward.

This is a well thought out idea in many respects.
It gives a true role to soldiers.
I don't think that a soldier should be able to do more than one interception on the same dueller in an hour.
Certainly soldiers should be able to be knocked out...that is their job!
There ARE some attempts at balance in here however from a dueller's perspective i can't yet support it because you have effectively set more obstacles to effective duelling with no balancing. For example you say

3. Is it the dueller have to duel the guard first before duel the other members of town or it just chase away any duellers?

Well, if the dueler is indeed intercepted, wich there is no guarantee willl happen, then the guard will take the place of the intended target defending him against teh attacker. Tough luck one could say, but the worker may not be as lucky the next time around if the dueler has another go, or the guard might get knocked out. (tough luck for the guard). Either way, we can not give duelers two duels for the cost of one, if he was to KO the guard, he should not get the original attempted duel for free.

Why should he not get the first [unwanted] duel attempt for free? After all he has had the downside of an unwanted battle with a player strong in defence, he definately ought to get something back.

In my opinion the duelling class should not be affected by duelling motivation at all.

If you felt able to accept these two things [and i really think they are entirely reasonable] then I'm very prepared to look at this proposal in a very serious light.
The proposals made by other posters make a lot of sense too.

The "two for one" seems to have been misread , i think . All I'm saying is the attacker only pays energy for one "duel" . He ques a duel , paying the required energy , he is intercepted and fights the "Guard" , if he beats the "Guard" he then fights his target with out spending any more energy .
The 80% to intercept top end sounds good . However if You only have 1 labor point over the minimum to do the job , You should only have a 1% chance to intercept .
I can agree to the no more than one "duel" between the same players in one hour .

OK I understand that now and accept your refinements. What concerns me is duelling motivation.
What this proposal does, in effect, is to create more duels, but make them 'fairer'. What you don't yet do is to allow the dueller any ability to take part in those greater number of duels. Basically duelling motivation is 10 per day and each duel uses up 3 of those, meaning that a dueller only gets 3 duels per day as a long term maximum average.
Hopefully you can see that needs to be relaxed? Don't forget that duels also use up 15 of the hundred energy a dueller has, so he is limited to 7 duels as a maximum anyway.

How about getting intercepted by a guard will instantly transfer a portion of motivatio back, let's say 1/3.

Thus getting intercepted thrice means you get one extra duel that day.
This somewhat adresses the issue, but as I said, I am concerned about the possible exploits if this was to be implemented.

Also, how about going for a middleway between the 2 for 1 deal and getting "the wrong goods" deal.

Upon interception, if the dueler wins the duel, he may procede to the next duel (the original target) for 1/2 of the energy cost of a regular duel, and 1/3 of the motivation cost. This way the guard serves as an obstacle, but upon encountering a guard you may still stand to win alot, for a decent prize so to say.

If this didn't make any sense, then I will attempt to clarify it.

As for intercepting the same dueler; Standard duel rules apply here as well. It keeps things simple and fair, just like with the levels.

As stated above, this will give a clear role for the soldier.
RIght now they are pretty much a duel class with good defensive qualities and a lack of speed and motivation gain.

Anyways, is this counter proposal something you could agree with?
As I duel alot myself, I would find it dissappointing to be intercepted if I did not get to the intended target upon a win, but it would not matter that much if you would not encounter the same guard the next hour. That said, the motivation and energy cost is a bit of a pain, but if it isn't too much hassle to code the suggestion here, then I think this can be a valid solution to the problem.

Thoughts?

Why not what i said? ie end duelling motivation for duellers. Doesn't that address both concerns?

next time one of youse r doing things so long please make 2 messages not one(i fell asleep 2 at 2 oclock pm while reading this)oh and sorry for going off topic but sshhheeeaassseee i litually fell asleep twice

I would say No cost , motivation or energy on the second "duel" .
I could be persuaded to the position of no cost for the "guard" duel .
Motivation depletion does need to be addressed , but this is not about that .

It would more or less completely counter the "stopping power" of guarding though, unless the defender inflicts serious damage, that said, we don't want this to be an invoulnerable obstacle making duels a no-go either (that would be no fun).

I see where you are coming from though. This motivation and energy question is tricky.

Your proposal seems fairly uncomplicated, and thus is favourable when it comes to the coding, but I still belive it should affect the challenger in some way other than just hp loss.

What I'm saying is; the guard puts his life on the line.
If the guard has 500hp (random number, top of my head, not much),
and he intercepts two challengers, both of them dealing 250 damage, not unrealistic I might add, that leaves the poor sod KO'ed, and not able to guard for 48 hours, standard duel rules.

Atleast we got to the core of the matter rather quickly;
The balancing of energy cost and motivation vs interception.

Come to think of it, if there are two guards on duty, and both intercept the challenger, (regardless if he wins or not), he is likely to take damage. The increased damage taken might just balance out the intercepting guards beeing "free" from energy cost.

With that in mind, I do like your counter-suggestion Ulthor.

Edit: rickbirth2: If you are not going to add to the discussion, but complain about the lengths of posts, don't post.

The thing is that although i really like this idea, i can't support it in it's present form because i know that it would be unworkable in practice for the reasons stated. So although, in a way, the duelling motivation business IS a separate issue. it seems like a really simple way to address the problems that this idea throws up. I don't think that it makes for an end to the discussion but for me unless i can see a way in which this greater number of duels can actually take place then it just doesn't have legs.

Any input here, on how we can solve this?

What would be the consequence if we were to have the "intercepted" duel cost nothing in terms of energy and motivation?

And what would be the result if it were to cost the regular sum?

Any input, or ideas are most welcome.

This is a really good idea. Still needs discussion, but I'm confident we can get something agreed and moved forward to a vote.

Here is how I see it working: I think I have also fixed the motivation problem.

• 
  The Job
• Any town member can queue up the 'Guard Town' job. He can do this for 10m, 30m, 1h or 2h as normal. He can also do it for 4h, 6h, 8h.
• It costs the player 10 energy per hour to do this job.
• It pays a certain percentage wage (much like building the town gives you some XP).
• There are skills needed to for the job: Leadership, Aim, Dodging, Setting Traps, Tactics, or something like that. It has a certain difficulty level. 1 labor point needed to work, as usual.
  
  The Interception
• The more labour points you have, the higher chance the guard has of intercepting a duel. 1-10 points = 5%, 11-20 points = 10% etc, up to a total of 100% chance (don't go mad yet, read the next point). This to make it take a while to get up to the 100%.
• The skill 'Hiding' will reduce the chance of being intercepted. This is not a normal skill used in a duel, so if a dueller wishes to use it, he/she will be forced to forgoe spending those points on duel skills. Adds more strategy to the dueller's build. Each skill point in hiding would reduce the chance of interception by 1%, up to a maximum of 50% (so they cannot compeltely cancel out the interception chance).
• DUELLER A comes to town, queues up a duel against WORKER A. The normal duelling procedure follows. However, in the background, it works out (using GUARD A's percentage of interception after taking off DUELLER A's hiding deduction) if he get's intercepted. If the duelling levels do not correspond with the limits already imposed in the game, then there is no chance of interception. Then one of two things happen:
  1) DUELLER A is not intercepted. The intended duel with WORKER A goes ahead as normal. The normal motivation and energy cost is spent. (You are right Ulthor, the motivation is a seperate issue). OR:
  2) DUELLER A is intercepted. He duels GUARD A. This costs 1/3 of the usual duel motivation and energy. Then one of two things happen again:
  2a) GUARD A wins the duel. The defeated DUELLER A is unable to attack either GUARD A or WORKER A within the next hour. He is free to attack other members as usual. It has only cost him his 1/3 of the cost, but he has lost the duel.
  2b) DUELLER A wins the duel. He gains the usual XP and any money (if the guard is silly enough to have some on him). He then instantly duels WORKER A. This duel costs him the remaining 2/3's of the motivation and energy and is played as usual. You would get two reports at the same time. It would not take another 10 minutes.
  
  Other
• If there is more than one guard on patrol at the same time, the dueller can only be intercepted by one of them i.e. he doesn't have to run the gauntlet.
• The dueller does, however, have more chance of being caught. It would run the test to see if Guard A intercepts the dueller. If he does, the procedure above is ran. If he doesn't, it runs the test to see if Guard B intercepts and so on. This is fair, because there is a high chance of the guards being different duelling levels, so automatically have no chance of intercepting.
• In the event of a number of duellers visiting town at the same time (i.e. co-ordinated attacks, the dueller can only intercept one at a time. If he intercepts DUELLER A, and whilst the ten minutes duel is being played, DUELLERS B and C come to town, there is no protection unless there are more guards. That said, if DUELLER A gets past, DUELLER B may get intercepted instead.
• The guard is only limited to 3 duels per 30mins, if he gets knocked out, that's his problem.
• Does duelling motivation go down for the challenged dueller? If so, it would go down by 50% of the normal amount for guards when duelled through the guard job role. If not, don't worry about it.
• Guards can still be duelled in the normal way whilst working, as they are not sleeping. They cannot intercept during this duel.
• All current duelling rules/procedures are to stay as they are and take priority over this idea.

What do you think?

There are some nice ideas here but i'm going to counter-propose.

The Job
Any town member can queue up the 'Guard Town' job. He can do this for 8 hour periodsl.
It pays no wage or XP the extra XP and earnings from duels are a cash cow enough.
There are skills needed to for the job: Leadership, Aim, Dodging, Setting Traps, Tactics, or something like that. It has a certain difficulty level. 1 labor point needed to work, as usual.

The Interception
The more labour points you have, the higher chance the guard has of intercepting a duel. 1-10 points = 5%, 11-20 points = 10% etc, up to a total of 100% chance (don't go mad yet, read the next point). This to make it take a while to get up to the 100%.
The skill 'Hiding' will reduce the chance of being intercepted. This is not a normal skill used in a duel, so if a dueller wishes to use it, he/she will be forced to forgoe spending those points on duel skills. Adds more strategy to the dueller's build. Each skill point in hiding would reduce the chance of interception by 10%, up to a maximum of 90% (so they cannot completely cancel out the interception chance).
DUELLER A comes to town, queues up a duel against WORKER A. The normal duelling procedure follows. However, in the background, it works out (using GUARD A's percentage of interception after taking off DUELLER A's hiding deduction) if he get's intercepted. If the duelling levels do not correspond with the limits already imposed in the game, then there is no chance of interception. Then one of two things happen:
1) DUELLER A is not intercepted. The intended duel with WORKER A goes ahead as normal. The normal motivation and energy cost is spent. (You are right Ulthor, the motivation is a seperate issue). OR:
2) DUELLER A is intercepted. In effect the guard has instigated a duel with the dueller. This costs the guard the usual duel motivation and energy but does not cost the dueller any. Then one of two things happen again: The duel happens instantly, the dueller does not have the option to cancel.
2a) GUARD A wins the duel. The defeated DUELLER A is unable to attack either GUARD A or WORKER A within the next hour. He is free to attack other members as usual.
2b) DUELLER A wins the duel. He gains the usual XP and any money (if the guard is silly enough to have some on him). He then duels WORKER A in the usual manner with a ten minute delay as normal. This duel costs him NO motivation and energy and is played as usual.

Other
If there is more than one guard on patrol at the same time, the dueller can only be intercepted by one of them i.e. he doesn't have to run the gauntlet.
The dueller does, however, have more chance of being caught. It would run the test to see if Guard A intercepts the dueller. If he does, the procedure above is ran. If he doesn't, it runs the test to see if Guard B intercepts and so on. This is fair, because there is a high chance of the guards being different duelling levels, so automatically have no chance of intercepting.
In the event of a number of duellers visiting town at the same time (i.e. co-ordinated attacks, the GUARD can only intercept one at a time. If he intercepts DUELLER A, and whilst the ten minutes duel is being played, DUELLERS B and C come to town, there is no protection unless there are more guards. That said, if DUELLER A gets past, DUELLER B may get intercepted instead.
The guard may have an unlimited number of duels as long as he has enough health and energy, if he gets knocked out, that's his problem.
Does duelling motivation go down for the challenged dueller? NO
Guards can still be duelled in the normal way whilst working, as they are not sleeping. They cannot intercept during this duel.
All current duelling rules/procedures are to stay as they are and take priority over this idea.

I think you put that in an awesome and comprehensive way.

Good format, better than mine, taking the refined ideas from the discussion.
Also, it fits very nicely with what I was intending when suggesting the idea, perfectly even.

The way you put it here has my full support.

Edit:
8 hours is way too much. It is a pitfall. What are the odds of NOT passing out if you have to guard for 8 hours in an active duel town? Also, one can apply your argument about potential gain to builders getting xp from building.
Why should they? Once they build, they will have access to potentialy awesome items from the shops. I'm not saying guarding should be as profitable as silver mining, nor yield as great items as trading with indians, not even be good for free xp. I belive that with a balanced % gain, this can be done in a fair fashion.

Besides, other classes may also do this job, if they make a build fit for it.
I also like the hiding tweak. Adds some deepth the dueler strategy.

I like the idea of longer periods of time, but why should they not get anything at all?

By not a) going duelling or b) going working, you expect these people to queue up an 8 hour job when they might not even get a duel in that time?

I am not saying they should gain XP, they would have to work or duel to get that. I am saying they should get a basic wage. It does not have to be a large amount, but it needs to be something. To do nothing is unfair.

Think about it, John Smith logs onto the west in the morning, sets his character to guard for 8 hours. He comes back that evening to set him to stay in the hotel (I assume the job will cost energy to do), to find that he has not been duelled. He has then gone a whole day with nothing for his character, despite doing a good deed for his town.

I agree to give more options for length of job (but it should cost energy to work), but I'd like to see what other people think about this benefit for doing the job.

And thank you John Rose, most of it was taken from this thread and ideas I've read in other threads, so only small bits where mine

Once again, nicely put.

Noone wants to work for nothing.
8 hours without getting zilch isn't very tempting.
On the other hand, how frustrating would it be to work 8 hours, then get knocked out in the 7th after fending off several duelers and taking some cash off them?

I think we have something good going here.