W11 & W12, and the Ensuing Debate

Too Many Threads
There are entirely too many threads being started on the same topic. There will be only one thread on this issue. Any additional threads created on this same topic will be closed and directed to this thread. We simply don't need 20 different variations of the same debate.

Warnings/Infractions/Deleted Posts
As is standard forum policy, during the ensuing debate we have imposed warnings/infractions for anyone who has violated the rules, inclusive of insults, mod bashing, and discussion of bans, with the violating posts subsequently deleted. The rules have not been modified, we are merely enforcing the existing rules, as we always enforce the rules here in these forums. You may discuss this issue, or any other issue, as long as you do not violate forum rules. Everyone please be civil.

Popular Demand
Regarding the Western Star announcement, I removed my comment of "popular demand" because of two reasons: One is that I updated the post to show past tense, the other is that the people using it, as a call to arms, didn't even bother to read my other post (CLICK HERE), where I indicated an ingame poll, that was conducted in the German servers, showing the majority of players wanted full premium. So yes, it actually was popular demand and I was not making it up. The poll was based on the far larger population of "ingame players," and not merely the vocal, but otherwise very small forum community.

Poll Deleted
There was a poll that was deleted. It was deleted because it was not authorized. The primary problem with it was that it provided erroneous options, choices that are simply not available, thereby resulting in people running with the assumption that there were alternatives, when there truly wasn't. The ONLY choices, as I indicated in an earlier post (CLICK HERE), were that of:

1. Adding two more premium worlds, which would have resulted in all the existing worlds being further undermined (as every new world added decreases the total amount of players in older worlds), or
2. Converting worlds 11 and 12 to full premium, whilst maintaining the same amount of worlds and gaining some assurances that worlds 1 thru 10 will remain basic.

The Decision
Based on the information available to me, including the ingame poll committed on the German servers, I made the call to go for the 2nd option. Players still have worlds 1 thru 10 in their original, basic premium format. And, the better, is you do not have two extra worlds further diluting the player base.

The biggest issue I have with the ensuing debate is that people are not actually discussing the alternatives, and are instead complaining about what was done. Yeah, I guess part of the problem is that you're used to having more and more worlds added, further diluting the existing worlds, so any deviation from the status quo is going to be a bit dramatic. I realized had I just allowed them to just add more worlds, everyone probably would have gone along with it, to the detriment of the community in the long run.

Instead, I made a choice, and it was a choice I do not regret, because I know, based on the information available to me, that posing full premium on worlds 11 & 12, whilst leaving ten other worlds at basic premium, will help this community far better than adding more and more worlds to the mix.

Apologies
If you played in world 11 or 12, and are not happy with these changes, I apologize. I cannot make everyone happy, I cannot satisfy everyone in this community, all the time, every time. I can only point now to worlds 1 thru 10 and ask that if you are not interested in a full premium world, to participate in one of those 10 worlds, which I have already indicated I will do my utmost to maintain at basic premium, and for which I have received some assurances they will indeed remain basic.

That's it,
Hellstromm

ok so there are still 10 worlds to play that are not premium
what if you are on 11 and 12 you are basically saying if we are not happy there go play other worlds what about the time and effort spent developing our characters on worlds 11 and 12

OK so the poll was removed because it was not authorised so what lets have an authorised one with the 2 options you say you had (DO NOT SAY ROLLBACK CANT HAPPEN ITS BEEN DONE BEFORE) let the people have their say on this

it should be obvious to you by now that there are a lot of very very very unhappy people out there and i am not just talking about the regular visiters in here i am also talking about the many many more who play the game and are putting their feelings into the town forums

the people coming in here to voice their opinions are also speaking for a vast number of people in game (both those for and against the premium)

I ASK THIS

IF the german server was allowed to have a poll on these 2 options then why not allow everyone in the game to vote on it
if the majority want full prem on worlds 11 and 12 then so be it majority vote rules
(Democracy in action)
if the majority dont want it on 11 and 12 and only want it on new named worlds
then roll it back and listen to the people who at the end of the day PAY ALL the wages

the anger is caused by not being given a voice and the feeling of being railroaded give us a chance to have our say one way or the other thats what we ask for

Hellstromm, questions:

Are Worlds 13 and 14 overloaded with players? A glance at W12 reveals about 12k players have progressed beyond level 10, and I'd estimate several thousand are either idling or abandoned. By comparison, on Arizona about 15k players have progressed past level 10 out of 86k... about 18k have made it past level 5 (which probably constitutes logging in all of 5 times). Seems pretty average, and the quicker pace makes it harder to determine how many people (like myself) quickly advanced in level before deciding they weren't really interested in the server. What would have been new about "new" servers, other than the full premium?

Basically what I'm asking is... if the two full premium servers aren't overloaded with players, and there wouldn't be any new added value to those servers in the way of content, why would we (royal we, Inno etc.) assume we needed two new servers, or that players that are willing to pay for full premium would be willing to pay for it twice by splitting the bonuses across two or more characters? Aren't the people who were already willing to do that already on Arizona and/or Briscoe?

Can someone explain to me what the exact problem is that they have with the new premium features? All i see is people saying they are against it. What is wrong with them and shy do you think it affects you and your gameplay? It still is your own choice to use premium.

Desi Boukerse said:

Can someone explain to me what the exact problem is that they have with the new premium features? All i see is people saying they are against it. What is wrong with them and shy do you think it affects you and your gameplay? It still is your own choice to use premium.

Click to expand...

I explained in the poll that was deleted, I won't post again ... hope that from W1 to W10 will remain the same.

Desi Boukerse said:

Can someone explain to me what the exact problem is that they have with the new premium features? All i see is people saying they are against it. What is wrong with them and shy do you think it affects you and your gameplay? It still is your own choice to use premium.

Click to expand...

You obviously dont read threads properly, ive seen plenty, why bother to repeat it all over again, go look in the multiple closed threads. Then again some may have been deleted

Sorry my first answer seems to have disappeared for some reason.

Warnings/Infractions/Deleted Posts
whatever

Popular Demand
I dont believe it for a second, you can send every player a banner comp alert every month if it was a true poll it would have been done correctly and comprehensively

Poll Deleted
That was the ONLY thread that gave a clear indication and it makes your German poll look like a total joke, so sanction another one and send your bosses the result from the English servers if indeed your interested in truly representing us

1. Adding two more premium worlds, which would have resulted in all the existing worlds being further undermined (as every new world added decreases the total amount of players in older worlds).

Its gonna happen anyway you and I both know that all its done is mess with older worlds and stopped the undermining for no more than a few months.

As for the ONLY options again it just shows how much Inno care or respect input we/you make ... zip !

The Decision

The decision was never much of a choice in the first place, to ask one server base isnt a true picture... we all know Inno are going to do exactly as they wish regardless and Im not buying the decision was anything other than an order to make whatever excuses up required but get it done option 1 or 2

As for constructive ideas ive watched the ideas forum etc and seen lots of great ideas, they dont ever get implemented or used. You cant expect a community to throw out constructive ideas for years have them ignored and continue to put up with these changes off the cuff and then to top it all swallow a weak line of "due to popular demand"

You should have seen this coming and Inno has shown a complete lack of comprehensive customer research. And that disappoints me the most the lack of thought or care.

Apologies
None needed really as a player I don't actually think you have any power at all on the gaming decisions, after all your just a Community Manager and not part of the Inno "team" and weve seen how much they care about the community over revenue. The assurances you have are as like just words I wouldnt and dont believe them for a second with all the past experience ive had in this game. Sorry old son but I dont buy it any longer.

Pandoras box is now open it is only a matter of time

Noobmic said:

I explained in the poll that was deleted, I won't post again ... hope that from W1 to W10 will remain the same.

Click to expand...

Victor Kruger said:

You obviously dont read threads properly, ive seen plenty, why bother to repeat it all over again, go look in the multiple closed threads. Then again some may have been deleted

Click to expand...

Why do you guys post at all when all you say is that you won't post it again?

Hellstromm made it quite clear that he wanted a central discussion and so do i.
I don't read the whole forum and would like to know why people have these huge problems with the new premium features.

You don't have to rewrite the whole thing, you can just post a link just as Hellstromm did to his previous posts.

I don't like to repeat myself but somehow I feel no other thread about this will be "analyzed"... If it happens at all.

I play only w12 and w13. I was not happy with the skillbuying premium since the day it was brought and I'm not happy with that one even now.
I don't think 1 hour jobs and other premiums are a bad thing. While 1 hour jobs speed up the gameplay, other new premiums can be used to kill the source of frustration (buying the dang union flag for example). But all other premiums are just temporary, a player that won't use those can still catch up with you.

However the skillbuying premium is not temporary but PERMANENT advantage and the gamekiller - a player by buying skills is actually levels above others who don't do it - and stays levels above them even when the level cap is reached. I can't accept this. After I get to level 99 on w12 and w13, I'll probably leave the game for good if this skillbuying option doesn't get removed or if a server without it doesn't get opened.

I'm a member of many other places where games are discussed and so far I've only spoken good things about the west. But I'm still hoping Inno will decide to remove this sick premuim.
However, it this ballancekiller premium appears in the next new world again, don't get angry on me because I will give some bad reputation to the west all over the internet.

Murrough said:

Basically what I'm asking is... if the two full premium servers aren't overloaded with players, and there wouldn't be any new added value to those servers in the way of content, why would we (royal we, Inno etc.) assume we needed two new servers, or that players that are willing to pay for full premium would be willing to pay for it twice by splitting the bonuses across two or more characters? Aren't the people who were already willing to do that already on Arizona and/or Briscoe?

Click to expand...

A valid question Murrough, but unfortunately I do not have an answer and, unfortunately, it is irrelevant, as I was directed to add more worlds. I took what was presented to me, bartered for some assurances of worlds 1 thru 10 remaining basic and, instead of adding worlds, converted worlds 11 & 12 into full premium in an effort to cut down on the pace of new worlds being added, an attempt to slow down, or halt altogether, the dilution of players in worlds 1 thru 10 (every time a new world is added, the numbers drop in the other worlds).

If you want me to venture a guess, I would say their reports (on premium and active player numbers in all the worlds), indicated it was time to add worlds. That is, as I understand, the basic model they use to determine when new worlds need to be added.

mawihtec said:

IF the german server was allowed to have a poll on these 2 options then why not allow everyone in the game to vote on it
if the majority want full prem on worlds 11 and 12 then so be it majority vote rules
(Democracy in action)

Click to expand...

First, it's not a democracy, it's a business. Second, as I already indicated in a different post (which I linked above), I didn't have the luxury of being able to run a poll on our servers, and instead had to base my arguments on the poll run by the German servers. Third, you're missing entirely the point, which is that ultimately I made the decision to have worlds 11 & 12 converted to full premium. I made that choice based on the information available to me, the option presented, and the unpalatable alternative.

victor said:

The decision was never much of a choice in the first place

Click to expand...

Agreed, it was what I could muster. But, based on your vitriolic response here, I shouldn't even have bothered.

Desi ill tell you what, if someone merges all the threads on this subject you can search to your hearts content all in one place.. as much as we are told stop making multi threads on one subject I daresay players get bored repeating themselves when they do give reasons and they are either deleted or locked down.

I hope someone else can be bothered to cut n paste a load because i cant.

Desi, you should have no trouble finding multiple explanations of the argument articulated numerous times in the past few threads. Short version: would you be ok with your coworker getting a raise and a promotion simply because he plays golf with the boss? Would you be satisfied if someone told you "I don't understand what you're pissed about, you still get to do your old job for the same crappy pay and nobody is forcing you to buy golf clubs" ?

JoxerTM said:

After I get to level 99 on w12 and w13, I'll probably leave the game for good if this skillbuying crap doesn't get removed or if a server without it doesn't get opened.

Click to expand...

Worlds 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 all do not have the "skillbuying crap."

Thanks Joxer,

This is the only argument i found in your post:

JoxerTM said:

However the skillbuying premium is not temporary but PERMANENT advantage and the gamekiller - a player by buying skills is actually levels above others who don't do it - and stays levels above them even when the level cap is reached.

Click to expand...

What is the problem with someone being able to do some more jobs then you?
Why can't someone who is willing to spend money get a "PERMANENT advantage" like you call it? And how does this influences your game?

Hells, and your point is?
I will not go to old worlds plain and simple after months of playing on w12 and w13. I'll stay where I am or go to a new world - if Inno removes "the "skillbuying crap."". If not, I'll simply delete and you'll , I seriously hope, finally be happy because a premium user who doesn't buy skills is gone for good. Only... It also means less money for Inno, but again take another positive side of it - it also means less spam from me on this forum.

Desi, it influences my game in a way that I have 2 choices:
1. to buy skills and feel like a cheater and feel like conned by Innogames' CEO (like I'm not already)
2. to delete the acc because I refuse to be beaten by someone just because he bought skills and those skills will never disappear like other premiums do

personality i like see these premium option atleast in my world ( w9 ) but buy skills and att not good as they will some person that use dady money and buy more skills and att and they will go for hunt another member with advantage of more skills and att

also energy refill will ruin enjoy and experince race

Hellstromm, you have to expect this vitrol (really, it shouldn't be a shock)... and more importantly you need to accept the fact that the vast majority is not being directed at you. Those of us who aren't spitting bile at everything Inno are trying to accomplish a very simple task: make a logical and solid argument as to why some of these changes are harmful, find some common ground agreement with the local staff, and potentially have this argument or realistic suggestions escalated to our Deutsch overlords. Suggestions like "here is why this is seen as a big problem... here are some minor changes (all purchases non-permanent etc.) that would make things better"..... as opposed to "200 players on W11 and W12 hate you and want to rub magnets all around your server room".

Do you see that possibility?

JoxerTM said:

Hells, and your point is?

Click to expand...

My point is, I answered your question. You indicated you would stop playing if a world is not opened without that premium feature. I indicated there are ten worlds without that premium feature. Did you want me to open up yet another basic world?

JoxerTM said:

Desi, it influences my game in a way that I have 2 choices:
1. to buy skills and feel like a cheater and feel like conned by Innogames' CEO (like I'm not already)
2. to delete the acc because I refuse to be beaten by someone just because he bought skills and those skills will never disappear like other premiums do

Click to expand...

And yet you readily pay and play on Arizona. At which point are we not supposed to consider this is merely a bit of drama on your part?

Murrough said:

Hellstromm, you have to expect this vitrol (really, it shouldn't be a shock)... and more importantly you need to accept the fact that the vast majority is not being directed at you.

Click to expand...

Murrough, I'm not shocked. Disappointed in some respects, but not shocked. As to whether things are directed at me, I've had to dole out quite a lot of warnings/infractions and delete plenty of inappropriate posts. I think I can safely say there's enough directing it at me to warrant my participating in this discussion on a more active basis, if for no other reason than to ensure people don't violate the forum rules or abuse the moderating staff.

Victor Kruger said:

Desi ill tell you what, if someone merges all the threads on this subject you can search to your hearts content all in one place.. as much as we are told stop making multi threads on one subject I daresay players get bored repeating themselves when they do give reasons and they are either deleted or locked down.

I hope someone else can be bothered to cut n paste a load because i cant.

Click to expand...

Well, if you can't be bothered to give me some arguments you shouldn't post at all.
I am trying to have a discussion here. all you do is shout and it isn't adding a thing to this thread.

Murrough said:

Desi, you should have no trouble finding multiple explanations of the argument articulated numerous times in the past few threads. Short version: would you be ok with your coworker getting a raise and a promotion simply because he plays golf with the boss? Would you be satisfied if someone told you "I don't understand what you're pissed about, you still get to do your old job for the same crappy pay and nobody is forcing you to buy golf clubs" ?

Click to expand...

Quite honoust, i would. When i started my job, i negotiated about my payment.
When i thought i had a good deal, i signed my contract. It doesn't matter what my co-worker gets. I made the deciscion to work for what i have agreed upon.
To get this back to the game. When you started it, you could have known that there would be updates. But the game didn't make you change the way you play it. It just adds new options. It is up to you if you want to use them or not. Don't blame the ones who do for the fact that they do.

JoxerTM said:

Desi, it influences my game in a way that I have 2 choices:
1. to buy skills and feel like a cheater and feel like conned by Innogames' CEO (like I'm not already)
2. to delete the acc because I refuse to be beaten by someone just because he bought skills and those skills will never disappear like other premiums do

Click to expand...

Please explain why it feels like cheating when you buy skillpoints because it really isn't.

You mean you get beaten in a duel by someone who has bought skillpoints?
How often do you get duelled? And what would be the difference if he didn't bought his skillpoints? A good dueller would still beat you,