Karma

I've always had problems with the concept of Karma. Maybe I just don't understand it.

According to Wikipedia:

the tenet of the law of karma is essentially, "if you do good things, good things will happen to you — if you do bad things, bad things will happen to you,"

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Sounds easy enough but I get confused in practice...

So, let's say I'm walking down the street and I see someone who was just beaten up by a couple of thugs that mugged him. Do I help that person?

If I'm using karma, didn't that person commit evil actions at some point to give themselves bad karma to the point that they are being beaten up? If I help that person, am I just prolonging their bad karma and prolonging their suffering? They still have the same amount of evil in their own lives to atone for, right? Or, am I just selfishly helping them so that I will attain good karma for myself even though I'm simply prolonging someone's suffering? The later seems pretty selfish to me...

Conversely, let's say that I'm walking down the street and I see someone just standing there. Perhaps I should beat them up. If I do, I'm just working off the evil that they need to atone for, anyway, right? I'm just fulfilling karma. And if I beat them up really badly, maybe I can atone for a whole bunch of evil at once. I don't know about you, but I'm the kind of person who would rather rip off the sticky bandage all at once rather than slowly pealing it off. That is, I'd rather have a short intense pain than drawn-out but milder pain - if I have a chance to choose.

In that case, since I am purging this karma debt and doing it in a way that is preferable, aren't I actually doing a good thing? Aren't I helping that person and actually building up good karma for myself? They are slated to suffer due to karma whether I make them suffer or not. My making them suffer is irrelevant. I'm just choosing the method (and in this case, I'm choosing a method that will cause them intense pain for a short period rather than prolonged pain - which I think is a good thing).

So, doing good for people is prolonging their suffering = bad karma for me
Doing evil against people is purging their suffering = good karma for me

That is not what Karma really means anyway, that is a western concept based very loosely on the Hindi concept of Karma. Many people who follow the Hindu faith get quite offended by this western defintion of Karma. According to Hinduism, Karma is never apportioned in the same life in which it was earned, all Karmic punishments or rewards are meted out in the following incarnation.

That said I believe loosely in the concept known as karma in the western world, but would simplify it a bit:
If you do what you feel is a good deed, you will feel better about yourself;
If you are kind, friendly and helpful to other people, they will be more inclined to be kind, helpful, friendly people, and you will find people are more pleasant to interact with.

George Hurst

Novice
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Canberra

That is not what Karma really means anyway, that is a western concept based very loosely on the Hindi concept of Karma. Many people who follow the Hindu faith get quite offended by this western defintion of Karma. According to Hinduism, Karma is never apportioned in the same life in which it was earned, all Karmic punishments or rewards are meted out in the following incarnation.

That said I believe loosely in the concept known as karma in the western world, but would simplify it a bit: If you do what you feel is a good deed, you will feel better about yourself; If you are kind, friendly and helpful to other people, they will be more inclined to be kind, helpful, friendly people, and you will find people are more pleasant to interact with.

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right on

George Hurst said:

That is not what Karma really means anyway, that is a western concept based very loosely on the Hindi concept of Karma. Many people who follow the Hindu faith get quite offended by this western defintion of Karma. According to Hinduism, Karma is never apportioned in the same life in which it was earned, all Karmic punishments or rewards are meted out in the following incarnation.

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How does karma being apportioned in a different life change the examples I gave above?

That said I believe loosely in the concept known as karma in the western world, but would simplify it a bit:
If you do what you feel is a good deed, you will feel better about yourself;
If you are kind, friendly and helpful to other people, they will be more inclined to be kind, helpful, friendly people, and you will find people are more pleasant to interact with.

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Let's say that you could do evil without ever having the worry about being caught or punished. Perhaps a small evil that would help you but others wouldn't feel much. Imagine the situation in Office Space where they steal fractions of pennies that no one misses.

Do you think the unhappiness of the evil act could be overcome with the gain it brings?

Dont we need any threaten or encouragement to do evil or good things ?
Why can't we make a decision and go for an action without any T or E Factors ?

What I know Karma is not only means Good to Good or Bad to Bad, it is more further about the relation between cause and effect.

For example
when you praise someone, they will probably feel happy
when you insult someone, they will probably feel angry

then

Happy > they have a positive emotion > they make positive reaction to you
Unhappy > they have a negative emotion > they make negative reaction to you

That is what Karma trying to say.
There are always exceptions, so you can easily find out other examples to to retort.

Karma is not the truth, but karma is the sum up of experience thro. the long history of human being .

I think that all actions have an a very wide effect, that the smallest of actions can make big differences because they effect future decisions, events ect. So if you do something positive there's more chance of positive things happening in general, thus happening to you and vice versa.

Not that because you did something bad something bad has to happen to you, but that the person has a part to play in the positive/negative balance.

That isn't a religious view but is sort of like karma.

The problem to begin with is, that there is no good and evil. It all depends on your point of view.
I guess, we all agree on the statement that Nazis were/are evil. However I seriously doubt that there was any Nazi in history that thought "Muhahaha, I'm so evil." All the people who do "evil" things (from our perspective), think they are doing the right thing themself and everyone else is wrong.
Sometimes it might happen that you think you did something evil, but that is accompanied with a feeling of guilt and shame. You never do it intentionally and are proud and happy about it. This only happens with fictional characters, like "Dr. Evil" or whoever.

Adelei Niska said:

Let's say that you could do evil without ever having the worry about being caught or punished. Perhaps a small evil that would help you but others wouldn't feel much. Imagine the situation in Office Space where they steal fractions of pennies that no one misses.

Do you think the unhappiness of the evil act could be overcome with the gain it brings?

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I don't believe in evil. I also don't understand your idea of a "small" evil. My morals and ethics are my own, not based on the laws of any country or religion. If I did something that I felt was wrong, I would suffer for it and always regret it.

Back to Karma, to respond more clearly to your OP,

Adelei Niska said:

So, let's say I'm walking down the street and I see someone who was just beaten up by a couple of thugs that mugged him. Do I help that person?

If I'm using karma, didn't that person commit evil actions at some point to give themselves bad karma to the point that they are being beaten up? If I help that person, am I just prolonging their bad karma and prolonging their suffering? They still have the same amount of evil in their own lives to atone for, right? Or, am I just selfishly helping them so that I will attain good karma for myself even though I'm simply prolonging someone's suffering? The later seems pretty selfish to me...

Conversely, let's say that I'm walking down the street and I see someone just standing there. Perhaps I should beat them up. If I do, I'm just working off the evil that they need to atone for, anyway, right? I'm just fulfilling karma. And if I beat them up really badly, maybe I can atone for a whole bunch of evil at once. I don't know about you, but I'm the kind of person who would rather rip off the sticky bandage all at once rather than slowly pealing it off. That is, I'd rather have a short intense pain than drawn-out but milder pain - if I have a chance to choose.

In that case, since I am purging this karma debt and doing it in a way that is preferable, aren't I actually doing a good thing? Aren't I helping that person and actually building up good karma for myself? They are slated to suffer due to karma whether I make them suffer or not. My making them suffer is irrelevant. I'm just choosing the method (and in this case, I'm choosing a method that will cause them intense pain for a short period rather than prolonged pain - which I think is a good thing).

So, doing good for people is prolonging their suffering = bad karma for me
Doing evil against people is purging their suffering = good karma for me

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"Bad Karma" cannot be purged through suffering, but only through work and good deeds. Helping or hurting another person will never prevent them from meeting their Karma, their Karma is only effected by their own thoughts and actions. Apparently the level of the challenges and ordeals you face in this life are meant to be determined by your behaviour in previous lives, but it is your actions and attitudes that effect your future, nothing else.

Karma is about living well, and self improvement, not crime and punishment.

George Hurst said:

"Bad Karma" cannot be purged through suffering, but only through work and good deeds.

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Then, in your opinion, karma does not explain one of the age old questions of, "why do good people suffer such bad things"?

Helping or hurting another person will never prevent them from meeting their Karma, their Karma is only effected by their own thoughts and actions.

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Again, I'm confused. Do bad things happen to those that do bad things?

Apparently the level of the challenges and ordeals you face in this life are meant to be determined by your behaviour in previous lives, but it is your actions and attitudes that effect your future, nothing else.

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Right. So if I beat some random person up, that is a "challenge" or "ordeal" that person suffers due to their behavior in a previous life, right? I am fulfilling their karma.

Karma is about living well, and self improvement, not crime and punishment.

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I just don't see it... I think it's very much about crime and punishment, rationalizing why bad things happen to good people and why good things happen to bad people. Also, to give people comfort that there is an "ultimate justice" or "equalizer" in the end.

Adelei Niska said:

Then, in your opinion, karma does not explain one of the age old questions of, "why do good people suffer such bad things"?

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In my opinion Karma doesn't explain much. It is a system of belief designed to encourage people to behave morally. I think it has a slight advantage over the christian belief in heaven and hell because it is not so arbitrary or as black and white.

Again, I'm confused. Do bad things happen to those that do bad things?

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According to Karma yes, but the only way to prevent or stop the bad things is to live a better life. merely enduring things as though they are punishments will not stop them. Karma does not just smack you and that's it, sin absolved, Karma takes some of your toys away and wont give them back until you learn to behave.

Right. So if I beat some random person up, that is a "challenge" or "ordeal" that person suffers due to their behavior in a previous life, right? I am fulfilling their karma.

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I guess that if you believe in Karma, then they are due some level of suffering, but if that is the case they would receive it with or without your assistance, and what you are doing cannot be said to benefit them in any way, as they are due to suffer until they have met their Karma, which they can only do through self improvement.

I just don't see it... I think it's very much about crime and punishment, rationalizing why bad things happen to good people and why good things happen to bad people. Also, to give people comfort that there is an "ultimate justice" or "equalizer" in the end.

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It is definitely about giving people some promise of "justice", and the promise of future benefits for present good deeds.

Edit: Just thought I had better add that this is all based purely on my own opinions and my very limited understanding of Karma, I am by no means any sort of authority and never studied any kind of religion in any depth.

George Hurst said:

According to Karma yes, but the only way to prevent or stop the bad things is to live a better life.

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Yes, that is for the future. I'm talking about what your karma states that you owe now.

merely enduring things as though they are punishments will not stop them.

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Again, if you continue to do bad things, you continue to build up bad karma that needs to be atoned for, right?

Okay, let me put it a different way...

Let's say that Joe in a previous life did something bad. Then in this life something happens that makes him suffer horribly. You can say that the suffering in this life is just the "bad karma" from the previous life, right? What if Joe in this life doesn't do anything that is horribly bad, but also nothing that is particularly good. Does he continue to suffer for what he did in that previous life until he starts specifically doing good things? Or, at some point, is the bad karma from his previous life absolved? Maybe you answered this below, but I guess I just want to be sure of what you're saying.

Karma does not just smack you and that's it, sin absolved, Karma takes some of your toys away and wont give them back until you learn to behave.

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But, is there any proportion between the "sin" and the punishment? Does the punishment ever end?

I guess that if you believe in Karma, then they are due some level of suffering, but if that is the case they would receive it with or without your assistance, and what you are doing cannot be said to benefit them in any way, as they are due to suffer until they have met their Karma, which they can only do through self improvement.

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If they are due some level of suffering, then can my act really be called bad? IMO, karma promises justice for wrong actions. Wouldn't I, by beating up the random person, just be an agent of karma and be serving justice?

It is definitely about giving people some promise of "justice", and the promise of future benefits for present good deeds.

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I understand what karma is TRYING to promote. I just question that karma works if you follow its rules to their logical ends.

If you are confused a lot, try watching My Name is Earl, if there are reruns yet. It's about karma, but if you are looking for actual facts without the comedy, books are better.

Adelei Niska said:

I just question that karma works if you follow its rules to their logical ends.

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Tbh I would have no idea. The "rules" of Karma vary widely between different faiths/sects or whatever you want to call them, and appear quite complicated and rather ambiguous in all the versions I have looked at.

The major problem I have with your argument is this: You are your own person with your own free will. You bear sole responsibilty for your actions and attitudes, you are not "just" an agent of Karma.

George Hurst said:

The major problem I have with your argument is this: You are your own person with your own free will. You bear sole responsibilty for your actions and attitudes, you are not "just" an agent of Karma.

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If you take karma as an explanation for why good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people, bad things that happen to good people are an agent of karma itself. You suffer BECAUSE in a previous life, you did bad things. You prosper BECAUSE in a previous life, you did good things. Things that happen to you are merited based on your previous actions. This is also a part of the justice factor of karma which you seem to agree with.

Thus, any bad actions that I do to someone, they deserve... Any good actions I do for someone they also deserve, but still, my bad actions are somewhat justified because those people deserved to be punished...

Anyway, we may agree to disagree on this one.

I agree to disagree on everything about karma. Karma is just another facet of a belief system. No basis in fact, no means to prove, just die, get reincarnated as a hippo, and you know you shouldn't have been eating all those Twinkies. Well, except you don't know, because you're a hippo now, with no recollection of your past life, or lives.

So, now you all can understand what Claude meant when he said, "As soon as he (the hippo) accepts zis (that he is a hippo), he live life happy. Happy as a heeppo."

Or not

Silly eastern religious beliefs!!!

johannmaximus said:

If you are confused a lot, try watching My Name is Earl, if there are reruns yet. It's about karma, but if you are looking for actual facts without the comedy, books are better.

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No, it isn't about karma, and it doesn't give a single fact about karma.

Depending on the belief system, karma is a diffrent concept, and functions diffrently.

Some have been pretty much dead on in this thread, but most have no real understanding of the concept. I might get back on this later, when I'm not so hungry and tired to give you what little I know on the topic.

Well , i try to explain why good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people.

The only reason why this happen is that Karma dont obey itself everytime. Why should this be occured ?

Then you should ask yourself if all the bad things disappear , how do you define whether a thing is a Good thing ?

We all know the the theory of relativity, if there are no evil , there are no kind. If there are no bad , there no good.

We know the wind is coming , because we see the clowd moving.

Karma will not always obey itself , just like mutation in gene.

It keeps us from understanding to cherish those Good things, besides , if Good things can get easily , who will care about Good things ? and who will think that it is a good thing ?

Think it my friends

The entire concept is flawed. You can't pick and choose from a belief system and Westernize it and say it must be true.

Toko22 said:

Silly eastern religious beliefs!!!

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God loves everyone no matter he/she is from the east or the west .